Black? Hispanic? White? Students foot the bill based on race
June 23, 2009 by Taylor HanniganPosted in: In this week's e-newsletter, Latest News & Views, Student Life
What if a student club held a bake sale – and charged students based on their race? The Bucknell University Conservatives Club recently held an “affirmative action bake sale” to protest affirmative action policies. Typically, these bake sales charge lower prices to minorities. The school’s response was to shut down the sale. We don’t allow discriminatory practices or sanction disparate treatment, it explained. Now some – including a group called the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) – have jumped to the club’s defense. They say ditching the donuts violated the club’s free speech rights. FIRE insists the school’s administrators “have failed to uphold Bucknell’s mission as a free marketplace of ideas.” The word “sue” apparently has not yet entered the conversation. But the group says it’s not willing to drop the issue. It’s thinking about trying another sale in the fall. Are “affirmative action bake sales” a reasonable way to protest school policies? Tell us what you think in the comments section below.
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Tags: affirmative action, bake sales, Bucknell University, free speech
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July 1st, 2009 at 10:28 am
Please qualify the word “minorities” because we all know that universities and the government have redefined those who are eligible for special treatment as “under-represented minorities.” Asians and Indians (from India) are not included as minorities, even if they are by population count.
July 1st, 2009 at 10:56 am
The affirmative action, is just another way for the left side of the isle, to keep minorities groups in there pockets. I used to be a democrat, until I realized that all the dem’s are doing is keeping the minorities poor and depending on, what the left is willing to give them. The right side of the isle runs into trouble when they tell the minorities they want to get them an education so they can have the american dream. That would require work so the repub’s are not able to get the minorities back on there owen two feet, with the pride of doing it by themselves. Remember, Aberham Licolin and Martain Luther King Jr. were both republicans.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:01 am
How come the Conservatives Club failed to mention that the forced action of affirmative action was the ONLY “government mandated” way that those PEOPLE OF COLOR (COLORED PEOPLE) were allowed on campus – in a failed attempt to make our society.. more equitable.
Did have a a LEGACY price too… how much for that FREE RIDE…?
“Discrimination is discrimination… there is no reverse discrimination….”
Miki G.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:10 am
Good point, Mary. Women are often included in the “minorities” list, despite the fact that, last time I checked, there are actually more of us girls on the planet than there are guys. (Should I get to pay less for my donut than a guy? Actually, since I probably make 80 cents to the guy’s dollar, maybe that is fair!) I guess the issue is, how well are those minorities represented at each particular institution.
I don’t get how charging lower prices to minorities is a protest of affirmative action. If the “minorities” are allowed to buy snacks at a lower price because they are “minorities,” isn’t that just affirmative action at work? Maybe they are trying to show how unfair the affirmative action policies seem to the “non-minorities.”
July 1st, 2009 at 11:17 am
Ridiculous – surely there are poor white students who could be charged a lower price? I think it was correct to close down the sale because it is discriminatory. FIRE seem to be over-reacting – and surely noone would think of sueing over this…completely over the top!
July 1st, 2009 at 11:22 am
A detailed review of scientific literature on the subject of race differences was published by Rushton (The University of Western Ontario) and Jensen (Berkeley) in 2005. The title of the article is “THIRTY YEARS OF RESEARCH ON RACE DIFFERENCES IN COGNITIVE ABILITY”. It is easy to read and it has tables, which show scientifically confirmed comparisons of IQ, reaction time, sexual characteristics, brain size etc. In IQ, for example, Asian race consistently shows higher scores. So these tests are not racists since they were designed by Whites, not by Asians. There is no reason why Whites would device a test which shows them having lower IQ.
Here is the link: http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf
Although races are very different on genetic level, as science proves without doubt, it is not true that some are more or less superior than others. Take different breeds of dogs for example. They are all different but they are all good in the right environment.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:37 am
This bake sale is an example of speech acts, with legal precedent supporting it. Schools do discriminate on race within and among districts, whether they do so consciously or not, since they are funded by real estate taxes. The US remains deeply segregated residentially–in some places and in some measures MORE than before Brown v. Board of Ed.–with ethnic minorities and poor whites disproportionally attending poorly funded and staffed schools. Perhaps more privileged people need to be aware of their privileges, instead of taking them for granted and blithely discussing the “level playing field” of opportunity. All you have to do to understand the compromised life chances, including schooling, of ethnic groups in the US is look at a table of life expectancy broken down by ethnicity.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:45 am
So, when it comes to demonstrating how the actual mechanism of affirmative action works … it becomes improper and must be stopped. Humm. What if we looked at it like this: 1. Everyone has the same rights. 2. We grant “special” rights to minorities or a particular ethnic group. This could be in the form of hiring privileges (affirmative action), low interest loans, SBA loans, police, firemen, soldiers. 3. There are less (standard) rights for all others. 4. Politicians will hall this and run again for office on the premise that they have lifted these deserving people up. 5. As Pavlov discovered in his conditioned response research… the politicians and the citizens will repeat this behavior over and over again. 6. The net effect is to motivate all citizens to pursue being in a group with the most “special” rights.
It’s like 20 people trying to get into a 10 man life boat. Eventually, the boat sinks.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:54 am
First; please understand the need to separate “affirmative action” from the policies of an affirmative action program. The left and the right have represented affirmative action in ways to meet their particular politcal agends. Racial disparities should be examined and large racial disparities may (or may not) require remedies.
The recent New Haven Firefighter’s case should have been set aside, initially to examine the racial disparities and determine if the testing was discriminatory. I believe the results of the examination would not have shown racial discrimination and the case would have ended in the lower court. Hower, the right to set aside and examine should not be eliminated. What if all the New Haven Firefighters passing the test were Black? Would the White Firefighters want to examine/set aside the results?
July 1st, 2009 at 11:54 am
I think the bake sale was making a valid statement. A white child from the same economic background as a child of color, should have the same advantages and opportunities.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:56 am
This happened at our college too -conservatives, with organized help at the Republican Party state level, planned to dramatize the “condition” of white students by charging them more. Pretty lame. It was shut down right away, as it would be for any other discriminatory bake sale. This is an old national party ploy being used again, not coming directly from students. It is just ideology in the guise of “freedom.”
July 1st, 2009 at 11:56 am
Any policy that prescribes an action based on race is by definition racist. People can put a PC spin on it all they want, but at the end of the day it’s racism, pure and simple. In Houston, TX whites are a minority by count. It is doubtful that minority quotas, set-asides, and “affirmative action” will ever apply to them.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:57 am
Well does the college offer discount tution based on the same practice? Do minority students get more scholarships and lower cost to attend the college? If so then the student club was doing just what the college does for the minority student.
July 1st, 2009 at 11:59 am
I’m a Democrat, and support initiatives to improve the opportunities of historically underrepresented groupa.
But I also support free speech, and the Bucknell conservatives’ actions seem well within the bounds of free speech / protected political expression, even though these actions seem misguided or stupid to me. Those are pretty big bounds in the first amendment.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Why is FIRE overreacting? If the shoe was on the other political foot, would you say that group was overreacting? The academy has long since lost its reputation as a free exchange of ideas and ideals marketplace and this seems to verify the “we don’t want to offend anyone that we agree with” philosophy.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Too much information about this is left out of the story. What policies of Bucknell University were being protested? How was the this protest shown at the bake sale? I have never heard of a university charging lower tuition as part of an Affirmative Action program. Rather under represented groups are given special consideration in hiring or admittance. All other things being equal, hire a person from an underrepresented group.
In a bake sale, all other things being equal, sell the donut to the thin person instead of the obese person.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Georgina, I think you misunderstand the point of the bake sale. Yes, it was discriminatory; in fact, it was meant to be discriminatory. This club was using this bake sale to show the discriminatory effects of affirmative action policies. I say kudos to this club for showing the double standard many colleges and other institutions hold over their students, employees, etc. Universities often give priority to minority students, as do jobs with minority employees. However, they shun students and employees from taking discriminatory actions, the same actions these institutions take in choosing their student body or workforce.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Georgina, if it’s discrimination to charge different prices based on race, then isn’t it also discrimination to charge lower tuition or waive test scores based on race? That’s what “affirmative action” does. These students were “discriminating” in order to make a point: Affirmative action is discriminatory.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:07 pm
This was a conservative club? Why would conservatives want to charge LESS to minorities for the baked goods to protest “Afirmative Action” policies? It would make sense if they charged minorities MORE because that would be discriminating towards races other than white, to prove the point of what it feels like to be a victim of systemic racist government sanctioned policies such as “Afirmative Action” It ruins the dreams and aspirations of people based on the color of their skin ,by not allowing them to admit into a College or not choosing them for a job or setting aside a percentage of county and city contracts to Companies that have a Minority owner and on and on.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Free speech was violated indeed, which is the most serious violation of all human rights.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Larry – Do you know what it meant to be Republican back then?
July 1st, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Well, the core mission of higher education is to cultivate critical thinkers and life long learners. Freedom of speech is a vital element to cultivate critical thinkers. This conservatives club was trying to use the bake sale to protest affirmative action policies. It falls under freedom of speech and it should be allowed, as long as they have made it clear their purpose.
July 1st, 2009 at 12:15 pm
I’m not sure I understand….students cannot discriminate and set pricing at a bake sale, but administrations of such institutions can discriminate and set quotas for admission and hiring based on race? HMMMMMM…………..
July 1st, 2009 at 12:32 pm
to understand the racial relations and problems everyone needs to read this article:
“THIRTY YEARS OF RESEARCH ON RACE DIFFERENCES IN COGNITIVE ABILITY”
by J. P. Rushton (The University of Western Ontario) and A. R. Jensen (University of California, Berkeley) .
Here is the link: http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/30years/Rushton-Jensen30years.pdf
July 1st, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Otis: I think you advocate that it’s alright to discrimate aginst a race if the end justifies the means. Your example of 20 black firefighters reminds me of the NBA or the NFL sports clubs, they draft a mi~nute amount of white athletes than they do Black athletes. Would you also advocate correcting that with white hiring/drafting policies
July 1st, 2009 at 12:41 pm
It appears that the Buknell Univeristy Conservative Club suffers from the same reductive thinking that has dogged the Affirmative Action debate for so long now – in which questions about reconciling white America’s racist policies (like, say, segregation) can come down to dollars and cents alone. Or head counts. Afterall, we cannot possibly disagree that a practice like segregation put the brakes on black Americans’ ability to further their education and, so, participate fully in the promise of America. We cannot possibly argue that limiting a (black skinned) full citizen’s right to vote by administering literacy tests at polling places was or ever would be fair. Sadly though, the sophisticated and, yes, difficult notion that Affirmative Action was at its inception has been reduced to a numbers game meted out in dollars and cents. When we can arm ourselves with only this simplistic notion of head counts or ratios, then the simple minded right can too easily stage a sensational little bake sale, call it “reverse discrimination” and get a load of attention. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if solving America’s racist past and present could be as easy as making sure that the ratio of black to white students just looks appropriate, that the numbers crunch just right when we study a cross section of, say, students at Bucknell University?
July 1st, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Affirmative Action is not to favor one ethnic group over another, it’s in place to make sure minorities are not looked over when it comes down to jobs, housing etc. It is unfair for a black person or an Hispanic person to be discriminated against because of their color or ethnic background. For hundreds of years racism has reared its ugly head, now when justice is close to being equal, non-minorities have a problem with it. If people would stop judging people by the color of their skins and where they come from and judge them by the content of their character, then affirmative action would not be necessary, but that is not the case in this country. This is not a perfect world nor is people fair when it comes to minorities. I hope we as a people can get pass a person ethnic background and the color of their skin, but until then I pray affirmative action remain in place to ensure that minorities would get a fair shake in the job market.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:36 pm
The point of this was to say that minorities/students of color have it “easier” — they can get the baked goods, and other things, more easily than their male white counterparts. I think the University missed the mark by shutting it down. By closing debate, we fail our students. A more appropriate response might have been to encourage debate through either encouraging another student group to have a counter-bakesale/table or to encourage more formal debate through a university sanctioned event.
July 1st, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Would anyone like to talk about “white privilege” and how it is at the ROOT of this discussion? It’s all about “perspective” – and if from your “perspective” it looks like something is being “taken” from you, then of course you will have something to say about it. From my perspective, as a WELL QUALIFIED African American woman in my industry, I appreciate the “intent” of Affirmative Action. The “practice” provided me an opportunity to “get in the door” of institutions that were otherwise CLOSED to me because I didn’t come from the same “family.” Neputisim anyone? Or how about the practice of “legacy?” — When we stop perpetuating discriminatory practices then there will be no need for Affrimative Action. From inception….it was suppose to be temporary. Why are we still talking about this anyway?
July 1st, 2009 at 2:51 pm
There is a time and place for everything. Affirmative Action was a natural reaction to institutional racism. Today, only individual racism reamins, and in such form it cannot be remedied by institutional methods. Therefore, Affirmative Action has turned into a counterproductive burden on everyone, including the people it intended to help. It will be abolished. The only question is when.
July 1st, 2009 at 3:30 pm
It is easy to disagree with Affirmative Action if you are automatically allowed rights and privileges. People seem to forget why it was necessary to adopt Affirmative Action policies. If it was not for these policies minorities (blacks) would still be janitors, maids, and nannies. Affirmative Action made it possible for minorities to attend college regardless of their athletic ability. The Bucknell Club had every right to do what they did. However if they used their conservative minds along with others who share their views and demonstrated the reasons Affirmative Action exists and devised plausible solutions it may very well be eliminated. Unfortunately it is impossible to combat racism and discrimination without government mandates.
July 1st, 2009 at 3:39 pm
This conversation is quite hilarious if you ask me. Here are affirmative action works in the Higher Ed world. A kid knows the admission official, or his/her parents has money and/or can be a potential donor, or has clout (as in the recent cases in Illinois), or come from a school with high income where students are likely to payy full price, or their parents are alumni, the school will likely accept them regardless of their grades and keep them in school even when they spend two years with a GPA below 2.0. These students are likely to be white (affirmation action as everyday practice in every institution for whites). When they graduate (finally with poor grades), their parents will call a friend who will likely give them a job at the expense of more qualified minorities. Like their parent before them who benefited from Affirmative action for White through the GI Bill or the creation of the 30 year Mortgage that gave it to white and not non-whites even though they too were veterans and citizens, Goodies who gave them the homes that now help put them in the middle class and help them pay their kids college using equity on the homes they would not have been able to afford had it not been affirmative action for whites and discrimination against non-whites.
i know how it works because I have seen it work: A white employer has a job, someone’s friend or daughter who he knows needs one, the job is hardly posted for others to apply but he has already hired for the position and guest who got the job? Not the overqualified “minority” who applied but “you know who”.
Often even when the “minority” is a lot more qualify than other “white” applicants, the almost always white folks interviewing almost always comes up with another category to disqualify the person: “I am not sure they are a good fit!” Every other white person in the groups get the point that what is meant is: “we don’t really want to work with a black person or we don’t want one of them here.” AND GUESS WHO GETS THE JOB? The less qualified white person… Affirmative action is reverse-discrimination!?!? WHY? because it prevents discrimination and compels places whith a proven history of discrimination (meaning denying access to non-whites and giving them to white (i.e.: preferential treatment for whites), to find adequate ways to rectify that practice of preferential treatment for white by creating a more level playong field. LEAVE IT TO MY WHITE RACIST BROTHERS TO CALL THAT REVERSE DISCRIMINATION! Go figure…
Now, it is the same “white folks”, beneficiary of affirmative action who now cries foul when the laws prevents them from denying access to folks they and their family members have spent their life time enjoying their denial of access. COME ON! FREE SPEECH! I say let’s really look at it…and to start, i encourage you to see this insightful documentary done a few years ago by PBS titled: “Race: The Power of an Illusion part III). The discussion might become more interesting then.
July 1st, 2009 at 3:44 pm
I highly recommend that MikkeB, and everyone else, read “Sundown Towns” by James Loewen, for an extremely complete and enlightening picture of racism in action in the U.S. up to the present day. The idea, not an uncommon one, that racism has become more personal than institutional is really a moot point. Individuals, institutions, culture — all interact to create our racial climate.
July 1st, 2009 at 3:51 pm
“Are “affirmative action bake sales” a reasonable way to protest school policies?” I think so. I Bucknell University realized the point that was being stated and didn’t want to admit they, like many other universities, are at fault for their own discriminatory practices. I work for a college and I see a lot of that going on. It is not just in Universities or Colleges. It is also found in medical and housing and so on… We seem to ignore certain things around us even though we know what we are seeing and hearing is wrong. At this point racism is not just against blacks, women or other races any more. It is also against whites. AND there are people who would scream racism, like spoiled brats would scream abuse, if they don’t get their way.
July 1st, 2009 at 4:02 pm
It’s absolutely a good way to protest affirmative action. They are favoring “minorities” and the school immediately recognized it as discriminatory, which is the whole point. I’m surprised the school isn’t connecting affirmative action policies with the bake sale which is obviously wrong. It is wrong, and so is affirmative action. As one coach said, “There is no affirmative action in sports. Whoever runs faster, runs faster.” How would the blacks feel if the whites started winning the Track & Field events at the Olympics simply because they were given headstarts and/or their times were automatically docked a second or two for no other reason than that they were white?
And don’t even get me started on the injustices to Asians because of affirmative action… If anyone has a right to complain, it’s them.
July 1st, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Larry,
Please note that Dr. King was not a Republican, nor was he a Democrat. He simply would not endorse any political party as long as the conditions that he and others during the Civil Rights Movement were protesting continued to exist in America. Do you think he would would be a Republican today if he were alive?
Sam
July 1st, 2009 at 4:18 pm
As an African American, believe it or not, I do understand the criticism and opposition to Affirmative Action. Just looking at the surface it does seem unfair when different standards are used between groups competing for the same thing. One does wonder; when will such measures go away and all are left on the same playing field. As an African American I also believe that there is racism that is basically undetectable or provable but that does exist. I have had conversations with folks who think like this and they are absolutely convinced that every time the White person is better qualified than the Black, just on principle. Just the everyday assumptions that people have about relative intellectual ability between Blacks and Whites are scary. There is a feeling that if left unchecked many folks in position to hire would think, White candidate is most likely better than Black so why bother taking a chance, because of deep seated but possibly, in the particular case, wrong beliefs. Yeah, I realize that we are in a free market system but feel it is too perilous to me just to hope that everyone is fair. Affirmative Action comes out of the underlying understanding that from our history there is some tendency to devalue Blacks in our society and some other minorities. All the statistics of wealth and poverty are skewed your way. I wish everyone was prosperous but until then lets make sure everyone is getting a fair chance. I don’t think any Whites have been trapped into a life of poverty because of Affirmative Action.
July 1st, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Mo: You need to get that HUGE racial chip off of your shoulder. That attitude is more of a detriment to your life than some idiot wearing a sheet. As for PBS presenting a balanced view to the subject…Give me a BIG break!
July 1st, 2009 at 4:50 pm
I think the student club’s efforts to demonstrate the “unfairness” of affirmative action is misplaced. In an effort to allow those with very little opportunity or privilege to attend college, affirmative action was mandated. The real culprit of the underpriviledged is poverty not color of skin. When poverty is taken into consideration, the people these clubs target seem to be minorities because a larger percentage of minorities than whites live in poverty. Perhaps these clubs need to look at the matter of fairness from a perspective other than race. By the way, there is only one real race…the human race.
July 1st, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Willie,
Your comments about character remind me of MLK. I think his speech is the most misunderstood of the great speeches of the world. Because a person acts like a “Character” does mean he has character. My personal observation has been that when anyone begins to assume true western character he is still considered an “Uncle Tom” and shunned. As long as this attitude exists, we will need some kind of action to affirm the difference in peoples “American” culture.
July 1st, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Critical thinking and free speech are essential to higher education’s goal of training future leaders. An excellent opportunity to engage students in open and logical debate was missed by shutting down the bake sale. Students may now think that some topics are simply not open for discussion.
July 1st, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Larry,
I appreciate you sharing your opinion regardless of whether I agree with it, but your argument would be taken more seriously if you proofread your statement. Your random use of commas and numerous misspellings made it difficult for me to respect your message:
“isle” refers to an island; I assume you meant “aisle”
“…minorities groups.” Ah, the rare double plural. Bravo!
“…in there pockets.” Where pockets? Try using “their” next time.
“…owen two feet.” Who’s Owen, and what about his feet?
“Aberham Licolin and Martain Luther King Jr.” REALLY, LARRY?? That’s three misspelled names for the price of one!
(I’m willing to overlook the capitalization errors in Democrats, Republicans, and American.)
Keep up the good work, Larry. Your fellow Republicans must be so proud.
July 1st, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Carol,
You make an interesting point using track and field as the example. That’s EXACTLY the reason why we have Affirmative Action in the first place. The race was started and Black people were enslaved to keep us from competing. When it comes to people of color…especially Black people, the race has NEVER been fair. “White privilege” IS THE HEAD START. That’s FACT and until it is acknowledged as fact, there will NEVER be a solution….just talk….and more talk, and more talk. Like we’ve been doing for the last 30 plus years over this matter.
July 1st, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Hello Larry,
Clearly your political acumen is only exceeded by your command of English. For you information, isle and aisle are homonyms.
July 1st, 2009 at 9:18 pm
I’m surprised these conversations always take place in terms of race. My law school does much more affirmative action for white women than for minority males both in admitting students and hiring faculty. I’ve always found this hard to justify given that most of these women come from very privileged backgrounds and the majority of graduate students (but not law students) at our University are women. My career has suffered for objecting to this practice.
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 am
Mo, Melanie Denise and Calhoungal:
Mo and Melanie: well stated. Your arguments are presented with lucidity and erudition. Calhoungal, maybe you should crawl back under YOUR sheet; but before you do, please read a book! Possibly two??? And then learn to form an orginal/independent thought.
July 2nd, 2009 at 8:40 am
If minority students are entitled to receive higher education free or at a considerably lower cost, why are they offended if we offer them donuts at a lower cost?
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:17 am
Melannie Denise Cunningham,
You say black people were enslaved. But we know that many black people in Africa were slave holders. Also, very many white people were enslaved as well. Read for example “They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America (Paperback)” by Michael A. Hoffman II.
Hoffman presents a rough outline of the history of the enslavement of whites in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa, the Carribean and finally in America from Roman times to the begining of the 20th century. Documented are such details as:
-Slavery in ancient Greece and attitudes towards slaves there
-Arab traffic in white slave to the Middle East
-White slavery and ethnic-cleansing in Ireland and Barbados under Oliver Cromwell
-Kidnapping of whites in Britain to bring to the Americas
-Child labor and gross working conditions in the mines and factories in America and Britain during the industrial revoloution.
-One of the most disturbing events documented here: the use of “human brooms” as chimney sweeps in England during the 1800′s. These might be able to claim the worst status. The orphans who had to climb up chimneys filled with toxic dirt and soot weren’t even paid to do so, they were forced to do that work and then BEG for a living.
-White slavery and white slave trade in colonial America. These whites were treated as more expendable then the African slaves because the slave ships had to go out of their way to pick up Africans.
-”Redneck,” because whites had to work out in the fields in the sun so their skin would get tanned and burned.
-”Hillbilly,” because when they were freed or escaped, the slaves had nowhere to live except in remote places in the backwoods and especially APPALACIA.
-The race politics presented here explain and elucidate the animostiy between blacks, lower class whites and the white slave-and-plantation owning aristocracy in the South.
-This one’s the kicker: the word SLAVE actually comes from SLAV, the white peoples of Eastern Europe who were often raided and held in bondage by invaders.
This book is well worth getting a hand on and reading, because it proves that slavery is a universal condition that has been practiced against all races and nations of people, even against those traditionally portrayed (i.e. Anglo Saxons/whites) as being the slavemasters and oppressors and as people whith so-called “white privilege”.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:51 am
My point is: it is completely unfair to base affirmative action on skin color. If people think that those who’s ancestors were slaves deserve help, then base the policy on the family history of the person. Otherwise it is morally wrong: Some person might come from Africa to US and get helped through affirmative action regardless the fact that his or her family had a history of slave trade. Another person might come from Russia where his or her ancestors were slaves themselves, through serfdom. Yet this person does not get any help because his or her skin color is the same as the skin color of some of the old-time slave holders in the US. Such situation of affairs is copletely wrong from any moral standpoint.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Isn’t also discriminatory then to make college cheaper for those who have higher standarized test scores and opportunity for an elite academic high school background? And don’t argue they earned it because everyone knows about the serious problem of grade inflation right now. There are all kinds of discriminatory practices going on in this country in the name of competition. Everything is never equal. So, if you want to protest those scholarships or lowered admissions standards, also protest the other side as well if you truly want everything to be equal.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
As a white guy, I guess I should have been less honest about what I see as everyday practice. My points earlier were about what i observe at work with peers who assume I share their racist views at times simply because I am white. (if someone wants a quick crash course on race in America, please go to UTUBE and check Tim Wise. he has a 58 minutes video that is funny and informative).
I don’t know where people get the idea that “minorities” pay less for college. As an administrator, I know of a practice to give rich white kids full scholarships because of the potential that their parents will donate to the school. People who have an in are more likely to get a better financial aid package.
I think most of the kids who were having the bake sale are clearly uninformed and more interestingly, they are likely to be middle, middle-upper class white kids with a lot of rethoric and racial stereotypes and bias and little information to back it up. If they were informed, they would know that Affirmative action mainly benefit women not people of color. This is what the data shows. Also, they would have learned a little about finacial aid packaging and enrollemnt data at Buckness and would realize that, contrary to racial polemics/bias. The population of students of color at buckness is less than 12% meaning 88% white with 62% of the student population receiving financial aid. Given that the 62% is not all people of color, why targeting students of color? Also, are they implying that there are no students of color who pay more than them to attend Bucknell? How would they know this, given that the information is only available to a few administrators. Do these misguided Republicans think that it is by coincidence that the school if less than 12% people of color and 88% white? Given that some of those protesting are likely to have received some financial aid, even in spite of their high income erarning parents, have they given it back or are they involved in targeting minorities. I spent yesterday reading on the Buckness website. According to them the environment is hostile to people of color – the term they use is “campus climate is not welcoming to people of color”.
I have read a lot of comment from the usual ill-informed. I have raised some food for thought.
The problem I have is that Low income white folks should be joining hand with low income folks of color so everybody can have a fair shake but too many prefer to feel good being poor, racist, and buying the Republican propaganda that folks of color have it good and get free stuff. It’s really unfortunate to see folks who could be ally sit back, struggling to feed their kids and pay their bills but feeling good about being white…You know, the usual: “I may be poor but I am white”, while they young rich Republican punks take them and everybody else who cannot think for a ride.
Mo
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Affirmative action should exist. However, it should not exist based on race, but rather social class. Financial aid is there for this, I know, but financial aid does not increase chances of getting into college. The issue at hand– (“minorities” needed help to get into college) should have never been looked at like that. It was never just one racial group needing help, it was a social group. Racists pinned “minorities” as being the ones that need help, which is not far off given percentages of races within the lower class. However, the simple solution is to keep affirmative action, but apply it to those of poor financial means.
There is no reason why everyone shouldn’t be given a chance. However, it is currently being based on the wrong standards. If there was an affirmative action bake sale where the kids with less money were charged less, I would have no problem with that. We should have equality of opportunity, regardless of race.
July 2nd, 2009 at 12:25 pm
I know that affirmative action seems out dated now that education systems are integrated and bold racism has dwindled. However, subconscious racism still abounds. Alll things being equal, employers are more likely to hire a white male.
In the book “Freakonomics”, by Dubnar and Levitt, identical resumes were sent out. Those with “white” names on them were more likely to receive a response. THE PLAYING FIELD IS NOT LEVEL!!!
Affirmative action doesn’t fix the problem. It just provides one advantage for minorities.
July 2nd, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Colleges have a responsibility to provide an atmosphere that is conducive to learning, not one that is hostile, which this action clearly is. These “protestors” are basically challenging minority students’ right to be at their campus by insinuating they were admitted under less rigorous standards. But college admissions has never been a matter of “merit” alone, despite what protestors of affirmative action would have us think. Unlike in some countries where national examination scores are the single criteria for determining who is admitted to which university, in the U.S. universities generally try to admit students who will contribute to the diversity and well-roundedness of the campus community. That means a variety of factors are considered including unique life experiences, special talents, and different racial, ethnic, and national backgrounds. “Free marketers” typically argue for the rights of a business owner to run their business exactly as they see fit with no restrictions, and it seems to me that’s exactly what universities are doing. Would these same students argue one day at their future corporate jobs that the company should not hire minority employees, or anyone with different experiences, who might bring new ideas that contribute to the bottom line? University admissions officials need to make this clear and put an end the notion that admissions is or should be in any way “objective.”
July 2nd, 2009 at 4:08 pm
So what is Affirmative Action? Can anybody write the main points of action within this program? Does the program actually provide extra funding for minorities or just extra points on the exams, so they can enter a college easier, or something else?
Perhaps some parts of the program are good and some are bad. Perhaps it is good to help women to get jobs at universities easier, since they need money these days to support their families. The salary of just the husband alone is not enough any more, due to a new economic order.
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:23 pm
Long ago when I was in University NOW, we held bake sales and charged the men $1 and the women the prevailing wage-gap amount ($0.57 at the time). We did this so that we could turn the traditionally-female fundraiser of bake sale into an awareness raising event. It makes sense to me to do something similar based on race/ethnicity, as a wage gap persists and persists, regardless of education, experience, etc. (look it up! it’s true! college-educated Black men make a lot less money than college-educated White men).
What I don’t understand though is how one can really believe that the minority students at any university are actually getting MORE than the white students and thus justify that they should pay more for their items. That is patently ridiculous.
It is a form of free speech. On the other hand, universities have fairly well established that they are private property and have the right to manage speech in ways that are consistent with the mission of the given university. I definitely believe universities should all have, as part of their missions, the goal of educating about prejudice and discrimination, and open their doors to a good mix of qualified students.
July 4th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Catherine, thank you for posting an interesting comment.
But let me disagree with some of your points.
1. Blacks definitely have more rights on college campus and in general. The reason I say this is that they are allowed to organize and Whites are not allowed to organize to protect their interests.
Example: The National Society of Black Engineers (NSBE). Link: http://national.nsbe.org/
As we all know there is no “National Society of White Engineers”. Clearly this is a great injustice with respect to people of European origin. And there are many more such examples when non-whites are allowed to form their societies on campuses while whites can not do this.
2. Extra funding is reserved for people of non-European origin on many levels. Just google “minority scholarship” and you will see lots of scholarship reserved specifically for people of non-European origin. Basically this is a legalized racism. If your skin is black then you get this scholarship, but if it is white, you do not. No other questions are asked. This seems to be unfair.
If racism in this country is to be abolished, all groups should be equal. If Blacks are allowed to form societies and clubs on campus then Whites should form their societies as well. If Blacks get scholarships then there should be a proportional number of scholarship reserved for Whites. Either there is justice for all or no justice for anybody.
Some might make an objection that European people are already enjoying good life etc. Yet we know that Europeans are disappearing worldwide. Their percentage is shrinking very rapidly among other races. They might disappear completely if thing do not change. Also, they are loosing their leading role in society. Thus they deserve as much support as people of African origin or anybody else.
July 5th, 2009 at 11:13 am
John,
I’m going to take the advice that my mother gave me years ago and apply it to your comments… “never argue with a fool, it will be hard to know who’s who”
Your privilege is showing John. Try Peggy McIntosh or Tim Wise for a remedy.
Be blessed!
July 5th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Mornin’ Don,
The reason there are organizations like…the National Society of Black Engineers is that organizations like the American Society of Civil Engineers and The American Society of Mechanical Engineers and The American Dental Association and the American Medical Association and any other professional association founded years ago with the name “American” in front of it would not allow Blacks to be members. We formed our own…The NATIONAL Association of Black Engineers, The NATIONAL Medical Association The NATIONAL Dental Association.
History is so important Don.
July 5th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Mellanie Cunningham: I believe in “civil” argumentation, but said argumentation must also be “reasoned” and “logical” in nature.
So, here it goes. Anytime a person is “preferred” on the basis of immutable characteristics (color, gender, ethnicity, etc.), another person is “disadvantaged.” The result is discrimination — no “if’s” or “but’s.” Sadly, many academics can’t wrap their minds around this simple logic.
Also, we should do away with the qualifier “reverse” when we mention the term discrimination in America. That is, when whites or Asians are disadvantaged by the granting of preferences to blacks and Hispanics, it is NOT “reverse” discrimination; it is simply “discrimination.” Nothing — not diversity, righting past wrongs, inclusiveness, or leveling the playing field — justifies the ugly and pervasive practice of racial preferences in a country whose founders promised “the pursuit of happiness” to every single American.
Lastly, invoking Peggy McIntosh and Tim Wise who have made it their life’s obsession to peddle in “white guilt based on white privilege” shows me where you are coming from. Your brand of ideology is not open to reason, logic, or evidence. But, I do agree with you on one thing: never argue with a fool…. .”
July 6th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Sylvia
Do you actually believe the comments you posted. Are you serious minorities have never been “preferred”. For your information blacks were not included in the Declaration of Independence. Slavery was still in full effect when our founders drafted this great document.
Maybe it is just me but I don’t see the disadvantages that some whites are claiming.
In 2004 whites median income was 10 times greater than blacks and 12 times greater than hispanics. Whites total wealth in 2004 was 120 times greater than blacks and 360 times greater than hispanics.
I find it funny how a group of people who receive preference in almost every situation claim discrimination based on the ONE thing that allows another group of people the chance at success.
Why would you disagree with allowing minorities which include WOMEN (Sylvia) a chance that they would more than likely not be given if it was not for Affirmative Action? You should be praising Affirmative Action if you are educated and/or employeed.
July 6th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Sylvia,
We do agree on one point, discrimination is discrimination….period. Halleluyah for consensus in the midst of disagreement.
White Privilege is REALITY….period.
July 6th, 2009 at 11:33 am
I agree discrimination is discrimination! Whites have rights too!
July 6th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Hello X: Me? Degree in engineering. Plenty of books read. Plenty of independent and original throughts. No sheet desired. Just tired of the “you’re picking on me because I’m black” crap. Dreaming, like MLK Jr., that one day no one will be judged or treated differently because of the color of their skin. The students at Bucknell did a terrific job of pointing out political inequality.
July 6th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Responding to Don and those who came afterward. I am white. If I walk into a room of a student organization at most institutions I can just about guarantee that I will see others who look like me. If I apply for admission to an institution, there may be special programs available for historically underrepresented groups (including poor folks of all colors) but there are also general programs that will predominantly serve the majority group.
I agree with those who’ve stated that any discrimination is unacceptable. However, we must also acknowledge that in general (though not in all cases) policies and procedures leave out large numbers of students because they are historically underrepresented. Where I, living in a white middle class suburb, might meet someone who can assist with my college search because most of those in my community have been through the same, those who do not have this background are unlikely to have this experience.
There is a belief or perhaps a feeling evident here that there is an finite amount of power — that if one group does better, another must do worse. Perhaps this is true. But it doesn’t negate the need to advance those whose opportunities would be limited were they not exposed to the college experience through whatever means available. I benefit from a diversity of experiences be they from racial/ethnic background, socio-economic status, or diversity of thought. Whether you agree with affirmative action as it has played out or not, you benefit from the experiences it brings to our classrooms.
July 6th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Calhoungal,
Here I sit…as well.. BA in Humanities…near completion of MBA..woman of African descent living in America….that had to WORK HARD for everything I’ve EARNED. Walk in my shoes for a day or two…travel where I travel for a day or two…experience what I experience for a day or two…and see what it feels like to be discriminated against simply BECAUSE you are Black. See what if feels like to have young white children try to rub the color off your skin because they think you are “dirty.” My GOD, how do babies get these thoughts? They have misguided and uninformed parents, aunties, uncles, cousins, brothers, sisters and teachers like you that have “privilege” and are arrogant about it, BLAME others and DO NOTHING to use it to better humanity Walk in my shoes or others like me to feel the TRUE essence of what it means to be Black living in AMERICA. I do agree with you…the experience at times can be summed up as CRAP.
I say “it’s deep.”
Calhoungal, your privilege is showing….but as they say…”I ain’t mad at ya!”
There are MANY people who are white that DO understand “privilege”…and USE IT to better the world. And, it is with those people and others that I align my energies and give of myself to work towards UNITY…in AMERICA and all over the world!
It’s all about PEACE!
Peace & blessings to you Calhoungal, Don, John, Sylvia and all like-minded!
July 6th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Interesting discussion.
I would say to all: Love your race, be proud of your race, but respect other races. This applies equally to black and white and all others. One does not need any proofs to love their race. It is like loving your child or your parents, you do not need to compare them to others. You simply love them because they are your family. If each person is proud of their racial heritage but respects all other races to follow their paths of development then, hopefully, racial frictions will diminish. Perhaps America, with time, will show to the World an example of a truly free society in which each race is guaranteed survival and free development.
July 7th, 2009 at 12:28 am
Racial justice is very important in present-day multi-racial America.
I would say to all: Love your race, be proud of your race, but respect other races. This applies equally to blacks and whites and all others. One does not need any proofs to love their race. It is like loving your child or your parents. You do not need to compare them to others. You simply love them because this is your family. If each person is proud of their racial heritage but respects all other races to follow their path of development then, hopefully, racial frictions will diminish.
Perhaps America, with time, will show the World an example of a truly free society in which each race is guaranteed survival and free and successful development. For this to happen we all need to embrace this idea of racial justice.
July 7th, 2009 at 3:27 am
Hello Calhoungal:
Congratulations on your academic accomplishments. However, your field has very little to do with the historic analysis of economic, political and social inequality, or race relations in this country. Simply by examining your comments, one can ascertain that you (and many others on this thread, like Carol) do not have the ability to undertake deep Socratic and philosophical criticism and introspection. You simply make your argument(s) based on your emotions. I refuse to engage you in debate because your comments are overly simplistic. I could present you with data, statistics, sources, anecdotes and examples but your thought process is simply not complex enough to understand how human relationships in history have worked (so far). You, and others, are attempting to take an extremely complex topic and conflate it to issues of contemporary political and economic access and/or denial of access. The issues are much more complicated. Your fear and ignorance forces you to attack processes (not to mention people) that you do not fully understand. Moreover, your social position and historic legacy impedes your ability to demonstrate the slightest bit of empathy whatever when it comes to under-represented men and women of color. Besides, the original thread is not about “you’re picking on me because I’m black“, ‘crap.’” Do not invoke the name of Dr. King in a feeble attempt to give substance to your narrow-minded ideologies. Dr. King based many of his arguments on the principles of agape. I concede the fact that there are poor people of every hue in our country, but racial, economic, and political inequality do still exist, Calhoungal. The issues are just above your ability to comprehend.
July 7th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Good Afternoon All,
Just catching up on my e-mail and came across this article and the wonderful conversation that has been going on. 69 posts to this article and counting.
This would have been a great outcome of a protest on a college campus. All the students getting involved, talking about ideas, beliefs and perspective. All the faculty and administration talking about how and why things are the way they are right now. What might make it better. Wow, could you image it?
Sadly, we don’t have that type of environment on our college campus’ in the US right now, but what if we did again? We could have debates using real arguments with data and substance and make them justify their soundbites. We could help our students see a bigger world then when they arrived.
Wouldn’t that be cool?
Sorry to interrupt, please continue….
July 8th, 2009 at 11:08 am
The idea of “affirmative action” bake sales is old. Young Republicans and other conservative student groups have held these types of events at various colleges and universities across the country. The idea of charging students of color less for baked goods as form of protest against a campus’ affirmative action policies misses the mark. White students should not have been charged at all!!! this would be consistent with this country’s adherence to white privilege.
July 8th, 2009 at 11:56 am
As a person denied an opportunity to apply for a job based solely on my race and gender, I find the student’s attempts to bring the issue of discrimination out in the open to be refreshing.
July 8th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Some people think that Affirmative action is justified because certain colleges give preference to wealthy people, which are predominantly white. This is a private policy of that institution, and there is nothing legally wrong with that policy.
These individuals suppose that by changing public policy to favor certain groups over others, they can somehow “create” equality. I think this is misguided. One, this does not change the original inequality, it just creates worse inequalities for other groups as someone else has mentioned re: Asian and Indian (non-native american) individuals. It logically follows from the first action that we have to create more groups which receive additional consideration, until we have reached equality. This means that we have to put everyone into their socioethnic groups in order to review them for admission and rewards which are supposed to be merit-based. We’ve accomplished the exact same as the institutions who favor people based on wealth, and those unheard voices of hardship (that cannot be given a racial title and politicized for gain) will be left in the dust, even though they were qualified and by merit should be awarded the prize.
Further, even those individuals who benefit from these programs are perceived as “tokens.” I would be embarassed and my success would be marginalized if I was a beneficiary of a program which denied someone more qualified than myself but favored me based on the color of my skin.
But the problem with this whole idea is that we have to review people either strictly based on merit, or we have to engage in the bureaucratic and subjective debate of “who deserves additional consideration.” As soon as you engage in the idea that soandso deserves additional consideration, you demolish the freedom to fail and the freedom to succeed, and you’ve engaged in cronyism.
There is another, more equitable solution. Allow those institutions who will practice cronyism by financial means to do so, and allow those institutions who do not to choose the best students, unencumbered by silly ideas of “equality by means of forced inequality,” to remain free to do as they wish.
I guarantee you that in time the reputation of those institutions who judge “not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character” will rise to the top and help nurture the leaders and innovators in our society. Do not arrogantly believe that you can create equality by means of inequality. You can only create equality by means of equality.
July 8th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
How about the Asian American student in Higher Ed? They are people of color and they are fewer in number compared to Black or Hispanic, but they are almost always excluded from affirmative action programs in major universities. Chinese and other Asian Americans were also discriminated against in the past … for example, the Chinese Exclusive Act. If Asian American students can excel without extra help, why can’t the other minority?
July 8th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Affirmative action is alive and well in the U.S. because educated people like everyone who has responded here can’t drop race from the discussion. It has been my experience that instead of race most discrimination is socioeconomic based. The poor whites in this country are getting the shaft even worst than the blacks. I work at a HBCU, the most racist, prejudice and discriminatory people I have met are the Black. Even worst with the younger generations than the older, they expect the world to be handed to them on a platter. Many of the a fore mentioned have or are getting their educations with a full free ride, when the very rare professor requires them to do and turn in class work the student screams prejudice and more times than not the Deans intervene and order an acceptable grade be given. In some the administration have gone in and made the faculty refused to.
I was raised a poor white male, my father had died and had no life insurance. I was the third of four kids, if I wanted something I worked for it. I’ve dug ditches, worked hay fields, worked in the tobacco fields and payed my own way through my higher education experience. I worked at the campus cafeteria during a portion of the time and was treated like dirt by much of the student population. I think anyone deprived of any of these character and self esteem building experiences are failed by our government and the policies that they have put in place. Any government policy that mandates such a wrong doing should be judged illegal and taken off the books. Also as a result of our cutrent policies our entire younger population now expect to be given everything, including jobs when they have been given the degrees they didn’t earn.
July 9th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
First, I reiterate what I said in my July 5 posting: Giving preferences on the basis of color, race, or gender is discrimination — no matter what justification (diversity, inclusiveness, righting past wrongs, etc.) is cited for advancing the “preference agenda.” As an academic, I am appalled at the ongoing expansion of that agenda, even though the majority of Americans is opposed to group preferences. (Interestingly, the Roper and University of Delaware Studies show that the majority of academics is equally opposed to race preferences).
Second, “Danny’s” post proves what the American Civil Rights Institute and its Chairman, Ward Connerly, have been striving to to achieve for the past thirteen years: a colorblind America in which ‘affirmative action’ ought to be based on socioeconomic factors, not race. That position reflects Martin Luther King’s original dream. King never said: “I have a dream that someday my chilcren will receive preferences.” In fact, Dr. King would be disturbed by the insulting practice of lowering achievement standards for designated minorities, thus implying their intellectual inferiority.
Lastly, every fair-minded American (and I believe that Americans are a fair people) would agree that racial discrimination should be vigorously opposed and legally prosecuted. This, however, should be done on a case-by-case, individual basis, not by giving preferences to entire groups. Ward Connerly is absolutely right when he says in his article “Fools Don’t Know What They Don’t Know” that proponents of ‘affirmative action’ (better known as ‘race preferences’) “are consigning generations of black children to a status of academic underachievers.” How true! Academics nationwide would be wise to heed his warnings.
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:14 pm
[...] 2. The hidden problem with Twitter 3. Parents blame school for drunk student’s fatal fall 4. Black? Hispanic? White? Students foot the bill based on race. 5. Paying girls not to get pregnant. AKPC_IDS += [...]
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:45 pm
[...] Black? Hispanic? White? Students foot the bill based on race AKPC_IDS += “588,”; [...]
October 26th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Rather than providing affirmative action benefits to only people of color, why not give benefits to all children based on their socio-ecnomic background. Give the students who grew up in working class families a better chance to get into college. And help those children get jobs on or near campus. Their parents don’t have money to send them since their parents probably can’t afford to send them money to live on.
October 27th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
I support the idea of an “affirmative action” bake sale. I would, however, not charge whites anything for the baked goods. They should be able to get anything and everything for free just like always. White privilege does have its benefits. All students have of color, regardless of their ethnicity, would have to pay dearly for any pastry.
October 28th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Ramon Muñoz:
“White privilege” might be true in the past, but in today’s society, it might not be true in all situations. Have you worked in a large corporation? I used to work for a high tech company in the early 90s. When it came to time for promotion, the HR of the company started counting how many employees of color and womend they need to promote in order to meet the federal affirmative action requirment so that the company would be able to get government contracts and would not be sued. As a result, minority women got the best chance to be promoted because of their dual minority status regardless of their true qualifications. Who were least to be promoted? White males, no matter how qualify they are.
Do you know what happened to that company? Got divided and sold piece by piece. The company was AT&T (not the current AT&T but the original mother bell)
October 29th, 2009 at 10:15 am
I appreciate your point, E.W. Obama is planning to do the exact same thing with Medical Schools. If you provide priority admission and financial assistance to “minorities,” you receive more federal grant money.
I work at a major institution of higher learning. Scholarships have more lenient requirements for minorities. Any minority that succeeds even near that of asians/whites receives far more assistance.
As a white individual who lived in a 700 Sqft apartment with my father/sister through middle and high school (below the poverty level), I find it abhorrent that I was discriminated against because of my race (my scores/GPA were barely under the mark of others who were awarded merit-based scholarships, but higher than minorities who received them). We received no welfare benefits or handouts during that time.
Don’t misunderstand – I am not saying I should have received anything based on my family’s socioeconomic condition. I am simply asking that the playing field be level based on a measurable standard of merit, without inserting race – *at all*.
If you believe that the SAT/ACT or US educational system discriminate against your race, do the research/advocacy to change the measurement for merit. Don’t play the wrongheaded, destructive game of “these races deserve lower standards because of discrimination.” You’re disingenuous and lying to yourself. True merit is the only fair way to distribute educational opportunities. Anything else leads to nepotism, cronyism, more racial divisions, and more balkanization.