21 Responses to “Higher ed: Are the Brits doing it better?”

1. Jacques Delettrez Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 10:01 am

   That reminds me of the health care debate in which we declare we have the best health care system in the world but it is highly inefficient. There are major differences between the US and Britain: the size of the countries; the number of quality private universities versus a centralized government run system; a high cost system versus a low tuition system. I just don’t see the major universities agreeing to a centralized application system; Americans are too individualistic.

2. Ed Puckett Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 10:55 am

   Actually, the state of Texas uses a “common application” for all state schools. I am don’t remember if I was charged for one admission fee and if that fee went to the state. My problem with this article is that it doesn’t really discuss the academics. Sure, getting students to apply to college is a big hurdle. But, you can’t say Britain’s Higher Education system is better than the United States (or vice versa) unless you compare metrics that are tied to academic programs and employers demand for graduating students.

3. J Crowther Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 11:30 am

   With all due respect to the application system and cost mentioned above, the really key issue is about education standards. The B.Sc and B.A degrees in England are a MUCH HIGHER standard than ANYWHERE and I MEAN anywhere in the USA much to the undoubted dismay of Americans who are misled about the level of their education versus the rest of the educated world. This has nothing to do with the intellect of Americans, it’s to do with the broken system. It’s well publicized that UK and Japan have about two years worth MORE education by the end of 12th grade than a US student. Apart from a shorter school year, far TOO much time is spent on sports instead of academics compared with everyelse. Sports has an important role — but here it’s obsessive in my opinion
   ( note; I’m an athlete/sports player and did represent my Univ in the UK so my opinion is not tainted by whether I love or not of sports ) — schools, coaches, parents and colleges are all to blame for this . In addition in the UK, at the end of the equivalent of 10th grade, students take “national”- subject content style exams “O” Levels in anywhere from 9 to 12 subjects — yes that many subjects !!!!!!!!!!!!! then specialize in 4 subjects to the “A” level exams at the end of 12th grade. These exams used to be set by the universities themselves jointly in my day by the way !!!!!! Students are as a result FAR more educated when they enter university than Americans. the undergrad. degree course in the UK then specialize for the final two of the three year course, so a student is much more advanced than in the US and ergo so is the degree standard. I could go on into more detail but won’t here. I can speak with some authority as both my children have been educated just recently here in the US from K- through 12th — at private schools too — and I have a B.Sc. M.Sc and Ph.D in math from my homeland England — then obtained a graduate business qualification for NYU Stern School.

   It is NOT until the Ph.D level that the US finally catches up standardwise — but US students are around 27 versus 24 in the UK when they obtain their Ph.D’s — another measure of just how much catching up has to be done through graduate school.

   Until the US opens it’s eyes and considers adopting the better education practices around the world — the system will continue to fall behind. I’ve lived here for 36 years and am a dual national now. Throughout my years here every government has boasted about and then FAILED to make any meaningful changes to the system. The ONLY FAIR process is a national curricula similar to the UK = flat playing field = more students BETTER educated at a higher standard ACROSS the country not just primarily in the North East corridor !! Consider how many more students would succeed ACROSS the whole of thenation at a MUCH higher standard than is currently the case = the future of this country at a time when China, India and other nations are racing to catch their economies up.

   Depressingly it is unlikely to happen as there is no national desire to do this and as long as education is state based anb local — there will always be disparities based on fate of birth.

   I hope these comments provoke some thinking amongst those who KNOW both the US and UK systems — you REALLY DO have to know both systems to be able to make any credible comments

4. Scott Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

   I’m astounded, yet again, at the title of the article not matching the content on this website. Obviously controversial titles lead to more people reading the article (you’ve successfully suckered me). More to the point, these are merely differences in execution, not necessarily better or worse; and they obviously don’t speak to the quality of educational differences. On point one, some states already do this for institutions within their state. While it may save a student some money, it does nothing for projections. If a student is willing to send and individual institution $35-50 for an application fee, it’s more likely they are seriously considering attending, than sending $35-50 to a clearing house and choosing from 5-10 schools. On point two, I had student loans, and never saw the terms as onerous. There are ways to defer, interest rates are very low, and there are programs (teaching) that allow work in the field to write off debt. On point three, please, no one is stopping any 18 year old from taking a break. Actually getting an internship in their proposed field of endeavor is a different matter. But then again, I though that’s what Freshman/Sophomore year was for, figuring out what you wanted to do for a career, that is.

5. Stuart Hilton Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 1:20 pm

   Well said J Crowther
   You have had to have been in both systems to do an accurate comparison. I obtained my B.Sc. in England and then a MBA and MS and honorary doctorate in the USA.
   One major difference is that the UK does not have such an open door higher education system. The UK offers more opportunities in training in the trades (ie apprenticeships) than the USA. Therefore the Higher Ed students are more committed and are in Higher Ed for the right reasons , not merely to continue coverage in their parents health programs etc.. Being an educator myself I would also include most Europian countries and also India and other ex UK colonies as having higher standards of education.

6. Mr. Know Nothing Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 5:51 pm

   Mr. Crowther and Mr. Hilton both have it right–the U.S. experiment in democratization (“open door”) of education from pre-school through baccalaureate degree, while noble in its intent, is failing and has been failing for many years. The reasons for this are many–irrational social policy, misplaced expectations of parents and students, attempts to apply mass production economies of scale to the inherently interpersonal educational process, the substution of “psychometrics” for rigorous qualitative evaluation, entitlement mentalities that equate effort with mastery–one could go on and on. The saddest failure, as Mr. Hilton points out, is the cookie-cutter thinking that has caused our educational systems to bend to the societal fantasy that we are all equally educable and can all become veterinarians if only we try really, really hard and do our best–an attitude that has devalued the honorable trades that keep our lights on, our toliets flushing, our cars running, our trash disposed of, and our stomachs full. Education in the U.S. has become a good rather than a service–something to be consumed rather than pursued–and too many students at all levels feel that if they pays their money and puts in their time, they have “earned” their degrees. As a community college educator, I am all the time holding the door open–and am all the time frustrated by seeing student after student approach their studies here as merely a way to remain on their helicopter parents’ health insurance until they are somehow handed a “jackpot” job. Am I some elitist who wants a return to a stratified educational system based on mommy’s and daddy’s socioeconomic status? Hardly–but I would like to see a return to common sense and an achievement-based educational ladder rather than “a time-in-grade” system for advancement, promotion, and graduation. In short, if no one ever fails, we all will–”Ripeness is all.”

7. Steve Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

   I have served on the faculty of major US and Australian universities, and my children have attended primary school in both systems. Regarding J. Crowther’s important comments I would say that the differences arise in primary school, and are not indicators of any pro or con at the university level. US universities are very well funded and attract top talent, which is probably the main reason they remain so highly regarded. The students who come into them are not very well prepared though. The educational standards in England, Australia and elsewhere, even by 2nd grade, are at least a year ahead of the US (and we were at what was supposed to be a good school in the US). The standards seem to be low because everyone has to meet them and many kids show up in kindergarten never having seen a book. I wouldn’t blame sport, it is many other factors–attitude, values, discipline seem important. I hope more systematic studies of the differences can be pursued because I think this would reveal much about what could be done better at all levels, including by parents (any social scientists out there?)

8. Brian Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 7:07 pm

   What a situation, “educators” who cannot even spell European; what does this tell us about the education system?!

9. Cem Kaner Says:
   August 26th, 2009 at 9:22 pm

   I agree that the British (and Canadian) educational systems are probably better than the American system. But “better” means different things to different people. Like Crowther, I think the administrative differences discussed above are irrelevant to the quality of the education itself. But I don’t think that a longer school year would make American schools any better.

   I think that our current challenges are (a) we are now teaching to standardized exams, rather than teaching students to think critically and independently. This was a strength of the American student (as I experienced it as a professor) but it is disappearing as we refocus early education to the test. (b) we have an overcrowded mandatory curriculum. There is no room in most teachers’ schedules for discretionary work — for following up on the students’ interests and building on their enthusiasm, because of the standardized-exam-backed curricular micromanagement.

   I teach Computer Science. American students are relatively weaker in Math and Science compared to students from several other countries. I don’t think they’re any less weak now that we’ve inflicted No Child Left Behind on the system. But where they are now much weaker is that fewer of them have any clue how to research an essay, almost none of them can write something longer than a page and have a unified argument flowing from start to end, and fewer of them are ready to tackle more complex tasks. More abandon the more complex assignments. In several courses last year, record numbers of undergrads in our program simply abandoned assignments that have been given to our students (several classes, several instructors) for years. There were always weak students with these problems. What I’m seeing is that the “average” appears to be declining, and the top of the curve appears to have vanished. We are teaching a standard of mediocrity.

   As someone who teaches up to the doctoral level, I disagree with Mr. Crowther that our current students catch up at the doctoral level. I think many American universities are dumbing down their doctoral programs as they cope with a weaker pool of students. A few years ago, I did a job search (my wife and I teach in 1000-mile-apart universities and we tried to find a pair of jobs within commuting distance), visited several campuses, and talked in depth with senior faculty at several conferences. I think the erosion of standards in masters and doctoral programs in the US is a widespread trend that we are often afraid to talk about because such comments might create a bad perception of the individual speaker’s school.

10. Mary Beth Doyle Says:
    August 27th, 2009 at 8:07 am

    I for one, working at a community college in the U.S. do not favor loosening the requirements for former students to pay back student loans. Too many students here borrow money that they use for anything and everything and fail to pay it back.

11. M. Tabatcher Says:
    August 27th, 2009 at 9:17 am

    I work in the Department of Statistics at a large Ph.D. granting state university; I have seen first hand what this article talks about! The majority of students coming in are taking remedial mathematics and are relatively immature with poor study skills and even worse work ethic. On top of that, a sizeable group of students have to take the remedial math multiple times in order to pass it. We had to develop special sections of remedial math with lots of activities and personal tutoring to get some through it. It’s the same problem we’ve always had — trying to force square pegs into round holes because society says all students have to fit. Many are not college material and would benefit from the trades (which were killed in this country in the 70′s and 80′s). It’s sad!

12. Sonya Legg Says:
    August 27th, 2009 at 9:29 am

    I was educated in Britain and now work at a US university. Certainly the application process is more streamlined in Britain. But the number of universities is much fewer in UK, and there isn’t the complicated mixture of state/private, liberal arts/research universities that there are here. The choice of type of institution is much larger in US. So I think it would be very difficult to streamline the application in the same way. The clearing house system is also necessary in UK because entrance is conditional on A level grades, which are only known in mid-summer just before school starts, whereas in US students are accepted based on their existing record. And there are schools in the US which allow students to take a gap year (Princeton is one). Even in the UK that is not automatic (I had to make the case with my professors for my gap year).

    With regards to the quality of education, my main criticism of the UK system, having been through it myself, is that it is too narrowly specialized too early. Physics majors in UK rarely have to write more than a sentence at a time, despite the fact that a career in science involves writing articles. In fact most physics majors haven’t written more than a paragraph at a time since they finished their English GCSE at age 16. I find that the US science grad students whom I teach nowadays are much better communicators than the average UK scientist, having had a more rounded undergraduate education.

13. Aghast Says:
    August 27th, 2009 at 11:04 am

    “Education” in the US is generally not about knowledge at all, but about the business of paying and impressing. Since the general philosophy of that culture is about advertising and then recouping the investment on that advertising, paying little or no attention to what sort of quality is supplied of the “product” (the way that education is described by the institutions supplying, what it calls, “education” these days) except if it should affect profits. This is one of the reasons that the general quality of what is acquired by students, at universities in cultures where money takes priority over absolutely everything, is not particularly enlightening, and they finish up inhabiting the bodies of adults with the mentality of fourteen-year-olds possessing little real wisdom, but having a fist full of certificates B.Sc, B.A, M.S., MBA., PhD etc., etc.
    In the US even presidents can make statements to their citizens, in all sincerity, like “I smoked but I didn’t inhale” and think that this makes a difference. If we are to live in a decent, reasonable, cohesive community these people need to be taught what responsibility is, and how one deals with it when one acquires it, and that is not what the education system of the present day US is engaged in. Hence, the election of a president who could hardly put a sentence together.

14. Warren Says:
    September 2nd, 2009 at 11:05 am

    I more or less agree with Mr. Know Nothing and Steve. I was educated in a U.S. Catholic school K-4 and public school for grades 5-12, then a private (but non-exclusive) undergrad college and a major private research university through my PhD in the non-medical life sciences. I felt that all levels served me well, despite the occasional substandard teacher/professor. Currently I am a faculty member at a public research university. I am appalled at the lack of study skills, independent thinking, motivation, and work ethic of both undergraduate and graduate students. I ‘d be rich if I had a dollar for every MS or PhD student who told me, in effect, that they wish I would just tell them what to say or write so they can get it over with. At the undergrad level, students are appalled that they should have to take courses outside their discipline, even when somewhat relevant to their career goal. For example, I teach environmental science for nonmajors, many of whom are journalism & broadcasting majors. Some complain that a JB major shouldn’t have to know anything about science or the world around them! I also frequently hear comments such as “I was my high school valedictorian but I’m getting a D in YOUR course, the implication being that it is the professor’s fault for being too difficult. I’ve sometimes inquired with such students’ advisers and find that usually they are doing poorly in ALL of the coursework. (Our local high school tells entering freshman that about 40% of graduates will have at least a 4.0 (with little effort, methinks), so they shouldn’t think of themselves as unusual if they’re in that group. College students rarely make the effort to come in for one-on-one help, and they are more interested in easy extra credit opportunities than just doing well what is required. A large minority (25-40% in my experience) rarely attend class, increasingly so late in the semester when they can least afford to miss. I am amazed what students will do for one point extra credit, yet they won’t come in during my office hours or ever ask a curiosity question during class, other than “will this be on the test” or, worse, “What are the exact questions you’ll ask on the exam”? Of course, each year’s exams are always MUCH more difficult than the “practice” (i.e. last year’s) exams on the web, despite my assurances that the class averages were identical. The problem arises very early in education, certainly before high school. Apparently the “stupid” and “lazy” genes are up-regulated during adolescence, and parents and/or educators are unable to overcome this tendency in many cases. Most entering freshman in college have come to expect easy classes based on their K-12 experiences. I blame a significant part of that on well-meaning but counterproductive “self-esteem is everything” parents of my own baby boomer generation. I want to puke every time I hear a sentence start “I shouldn’t have to…” or “I just don’t get _______” (math and science being popular blank-fillers). Largely self-motivated, I busted my hump throughout my K-PhD education, and whiny fellow students always irritated me, especially when they attributed my success not to effort, but to inherent intelligence beyond their ability, all the while chugging beer at the beach.

15. Aghast Says:
    September 2nd, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    What would you expect in a culture where people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing? Let’s all impress should we, with our wonderful qualifications so that we can obtain higher paying jobs? Forget about the content, or even understanding, let’s just impress. Let’s reduce everything to a superficial level where we can all congratulate ourselves on our achievements, regardless of whether we actually understand anything. Lets all ware our caps-and-gowns and enter those Ivory-White- Towers with our heads held high. “Education” like everything else has become about the advertising. Put your finger on it and it will go straight through – nothing underneath! You think it’s bad now, but just wait until these contemporary students (children) are in charge (of the nursery). Just wait to observe the lack of responsibility that is surfacing like a gigantic iceberg which will open your Titanic like it was nothing more than a can of beans. This is what successive US governments have been organizing for decades. The people will be nothing more than mindless automaton, unable to understand what is happening to them, unable to divine reasonable arguments from fallacious ones, totally bereft of the ability to live decent, reasonable lives. People like George Bush will be commonplace. However, I’m sure they will all have degrees from the most prestigious universities, such as Yale for example.

16. jwd2a Says:
    September 2nd, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    In my opinion, this is not the best option

17. Aghast Says:
    September 2nd, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    What do you expect in a culture where people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing?

18. Mark Says:
    September 22nd, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    I was an American exchange student to the A Level system and since have attended both American and British Universities. With my American background I was the ONLY one to have managed to do 4 A Levels in my “UK PRIVATE SCHOOL” because of my rounded background in middle school and freshmen year of high school.

    Generally the American system is far better and superior. I have experienced as an American student!

    The British system is a spoon fed system and not much “thinking” is done. Sure, statistically my British peers may outperform me in individual subjects but at the end of the day I (and other American educated) actually know what it means to learn.

    Trust me from experience as a non educator but as the actual students.

    American professors and instructors who look down at remedial courses at American universities should just go away and win the nobel prize and don’t bother teaching.

19. Cody Says:
    September 30th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Doesn’t this last comment by Mark exemplify what Aghast has been pointing to? Don’t an awful lot those supposed well qualified (4 A Levels) students show an amazing lack of anything like real wisdom? British or American, our students are becoming dumber and dumber, with more and more qualifications, with less and less knowledge, that actually relates to living reasonable, decent lives in communities with any sort of understanding of how they integrate with others on our planet, locally, nationally, and internationally?

    As for “thinking”, I’m aware that this is something of a nebulous concept and only shows a lack of real thought about how one should use it to express whatever Mark is trying to communicate.

20. Furry animal Says:
    October 1st, 2009 at 10:28 am

    There’s something wrong when students frame their Ivy League acceptance letters instead of their diplomas upon completion.

21. Warren Says:
    October 5th, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    Re: Mark’s final statement. I don’t think professors “look down on” remedial courses per se. Rather, the fact that they are “remedial” implies a failure of education somewhere in the K-12 range. I think a lot has to do with parental attitudes and low-bar expectations for their children, not just poor teachers or unchallenging curriculum. Why shouldn’t college faculty expect admitted students to be able to spell correctly, write grammatically correct and coherent sentences and paragraphs on various topics, do basic arithmetic and algebra (which I learned thoroughly by the 8th grade), and have some basic intellectual curiosity? Why go to college if not motivated? If not, go to trade school. No shame in that. College isn’t for everyone. My mother never attended college, but with a public high school diploma earned in the late 1940s, she has excellent oral, writing and basic math skills. Ditto for my brother who did not attend college but has done very well for himself in a technical trade. He is very disparaging about college grads in his industrial workplace who cannot speak or write proper English or do mid-level math.

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