Parents blame school for drunk student’s fatal fall
July 23, 2009 by Tom D'AgostinoPosted in: From the Courts, In this week's e-newsletter
A drunken student climbs out his dorm window onto a ledge and then falls to his death. Surely, the university can’t be held responsible – can it?
The student was just a few weeks into his first semester and was living in a seventh-floor dorm. He’d signed a housing contract and agreed to follow school policies and regulations.
Among the rules: no removing window screens, no climbing out dorm windows and no venturing onto dorm ledges.
The window in the dorm room opened only about 16 inches, and an interior screen was screwed into the frame.
That didn’t stop the student from going out the window and onto a two-foot ledge to smoke a cigarette. At the time, his blood alcohol level was .16.
Unfortunately, he never made it back inside – he fell from the ledge to his death.
A tragic accident, yes … but certainly not the school’s fault, right?
Not according to his parents, who filed a lawsuit saying the ledge was a dangerous condition and the university should have fixed it. They also said students weren’t adequately warned about the danger.
To support their claims, the parents pointed out that the school had received prior reports of students going out onto the ledges and falling from them.
The university won the case when an appeals court ruled the danger of stepping onto the ledge was “open and obvious.” For that reason, the school wasn’t obligated to warn the student.
Schools aren’t insurers of student safety, the court said. They aren’t required to protect students from their own reckless and negligent acts.
Cite: Wellhausen v. University of Kansas
The university had prior reports of students falling from the ledges – so should it have done more to prevent this one? Let us know what you think in the comments section below.
Tags: alcohol, court, student drinking, University of Kansas
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May 28th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
The school should sue the parents for not instilling good sense in their kid.
May 28th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Although, accountibilty is the individual’s responsiblity, when a young person is drinking in the dorms apparently under no supervision one must be responsible and accountable for the outcome. These young KIDS come to college to learn and experience life away from home. This in it self is a great stress for the young people. I believe there is a “no alcohol in the dorms” policy and if there is not there should be for this very reason. A life is priceless. There is no excuse for terminating a life so young. The academic setting puts young minds at stress at all different levels. It is up to us the adults to realize this and set boundaries for these young people to follow. AND we must enforce them! saying it is not our fault is not enough. It is no one’s fault. It is our responsiblity to the parents and the school to PREVENT these accidents from happening….Hilario R. Monreal
May 28th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
the parents should be held responsible for not giving their son the notion of personal responsibility.
but is suspect that since they sued the school they do not have it themselves.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
If the university had prior reports of students falling from the ledges, the safety personnel should have done some efforts to prevent the current students’ falling from the ledges again. Therefore the University is responsible because of negligence (negligence on the part of the personnel who should have been responsible for the safety of students, personnell and etc.)
May 28th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
What more could the school have done? Put bars on the windows? Or maybe make all incoming students pass a common sense test before they are allowed in?
If you look at the information on
http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case.asp?n=98,663&s=KS&d=36833
you will get even more details.
yes, it is tragic that another student lost his life in an act of drunken stupidity. But the university did all that could be considered reasonable to prevent accidents.
The parents were responsible for raising the student, and in the end the student is resposible for his own actions.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
At what point do we as a society stop trying to hold others responsible for the mistakes our children make? Kids sometimes make bad choices, and sometimes those choices have dire consequence, but I personally am tired of parents trying to shift the blame to someone other than, dire I say – their child or themselves for not teaching their child self control. I understand the pain caused by the loss of a child, and therefore also understand the desire to shift some of that pain to others. I did not do this however, but saw things very clearly in that my son had, if not complete responsibility for his death, the majority was his (and mine) (one other person was involved) Hopefully, these parents can at some point realize that their son just made a bad choice, and forgive and heal.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
How did he get served since it’s the first semester he must not have been 21. Sounds like first exposure to alcohol for student. Parents should go after lack of control of alcohol to minors of server/seller and property owner. Did school have an alcohol education program during orientation?
May 28th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Short of violating the firecode by not allowing the windows to open, or tearing down the building, I’m not coming up with any preventative measure that would keep students from being irresponsible. What possible warning would this drunken student have heeded?
This is a tragedy for the family and friends of this boy, but the university is not at fault here.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
While any rational sober person would see the obvious danger, an intoxicated person might not. Most of the previous comments regarding common sense, stupidity, etc., assume an intoxicated person is capable of making the same judgments as a sober one.
The article doesn’t give the student’s age. I think the university should consider itself partly liable if it doesn’t take adequate steps to prevent underage drinking on school property.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
The student climbed out on the ledge of his own free will. He was under the influence of alcohol. Poor choices are sometimes accompanied by bad consequences.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
The real issue is WHY are universities now faced with such serious alcohol abuse problems and WHY do we fail to address this issue effectively. Yes, the student is responsible, but what does it tell us that alcohol related deaths are on the rise?
May 28th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
The university should not be held responsible. Responsibility starts at home. Teach your kid how to conduct themselves and act outside of the home may stop very stupid acts away from home.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Should a police officer be placed at every intersection in the country to prevent me from stepping off the curb against the light and being hit by a car? Should the town be sued for failing to protect my life from my own decisions and behaviors? If we hold the university, in this case, responsible for the loss of life, what message are we sending to the very students who are there for an education? If college students need protection from themselves, then they’re not ready for college and parents need to be held accountable for sending an immature child to an institution where individuals are expected to abide by the policies of the environment.
May 28th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Thanks for the link to the case details, Roberta.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
I disagree with HR Monreal. There are some individuals in this society that have simply de-evolved into unthinking, unprepared, unaccountable, irresponsible burdens on society. Parents should be EMPOWERED more to help instill those sensibilities early on.
Certainly I am not the only person that has the opinion that there appears to be significantly less common sense and maturity at all ages (up to perhaps 40) in today’s world. Why is that?
Perhaps it’s because there are so many people wanting blame and responsibility to be shared, or worse, passed along. So few demand themselves and others to take PERSONAL accountability.
When do you think the first accident from people falling from the ledges was and how long to you think those ledges and windows existed before the deevolution of society caused someone witless enough to drink in their dormroom (apparently fearless of getting caught) and common sense-less enough to crawl out their window for their smoke without the appropriate coordination to do so? Was it laziness that overcame common sense – since there are plenty of people gathered outside dorm doors on the main level having a smoke break at most hours? It IS a tragedy, I agree, but there are far greater (and many more of them) tragedies.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Please!!! Schools are not there to do the work of the parents. Parents should be responsible for their kids moral and values. The School should sue the parents for taking them thru unnecessary stress of going to court!!
Death is always tragic especially when it is children.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I totally agree with Roberta and Lucinda. I like the “common sense” suggestion. There are DEFINITELY way too many people out there without any!!!
May 28th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
I wonder how the parents would have reacted had this happen in their home?
May 28th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
The parent’s and the student are to blame—not the school. The parents should have taught the student better than to drink alcohol and the student should have remained in his room. This story is typical of what is going on in our country where everyone has to blame someone else for their failures. YOU are responsible for you! It is sad that something like this happens when it really doesn’t have to.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I wonder how the parents would have reacted had this have happen in their home?
May 28th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Tragically neither University or parents can prevent or for that matter predict the implusive actions taken by an individual drinking to excess. Grief causes the individual in pain to search for an explanation and barring that at minimum someone to blame. While the University is not directly responsible for the actions of the student or his resulting death it does give one reason to pause and ask why the windows on the 7th floor are of a type that can be opened in the first place, especially if this problem has occured in the past. Indeed barring of the window or replacement with a window that does not open maybe a reasonable step to take in this situation. Unfortunately while illegal, not condoned and explicitly forbidden it is none the less a frequent fact of campus life that underage students drink and often excessively, consequently it follows that these excessively drinking underage (or of age, for that matter) students act without forethought and reason leading to poor and sometimes deadly actions on their part.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
The student killed himself through his own stupidity. This is how Darwin said it would be. The reproductive success of his parents was seriously diminished because they raised a stupid son who got himself killed. This is how natural selection works – no legal action required.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Honestly, I agree with a lot of what’s being said here. It is not the school’s fault the student plunged to his own alcohol-induced death. Considering he signed the agreement with the “window clause” and had to physically undo the windows, it was his doing. It’s not like he just make one wrong move and fell out.
I think all these lawsuits pointing fingers have started back with the first major one – the McDonald’s hot coffee incident.
Common Sense is not common, and our legal system attempts to squeeze every penny out of that fact. It’s too bad people cannot be responsible for their own actions.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
When I attended college back east (1969-1973) a very similar accident transpired.
My friend fell off the balcony of a high rise apartment complex (7th floor) and died from the fall.
He was drunk and drugged out and his parents did not sue. It was NOT the university’s fault but the student’s lack of good judgement. NO, the university isn’t at fault. An institution cannot continually babysit students and their behavior.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Some people will sue over anything. This brings up a lot of questions about this boy. It was his “first semester,” so I’m thinking he’s 18 years old. The legal drinking age in Kansas is 21, and Kansas has a “zero tolerance” policy when it comes to underage drinking. Didn’t his parents teach him that? Didn’t he hear it on the news? Did he think that since he was in his dorm room no one would find out? If his blood alcohol level was .16, he was drunk as a skunk! If with friends, did they egg him on or try to stop him? Or was he drinking alone? If alone, consuming that much alcohol doesn’t usually occur if you’re a happy person. Alcohol diminishes common sense but he had to squeeze between a 16″ window opening, and either unscrew the screen or rip it to get outside. That took some time and effort. I, personally, don’t believe that that level of questionable behavior is the sole result of a night of drinking. I’ll bet it started way before he left for college.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
I cannot believe the nerve of those parents. I completely understand that they are devastated and that the loss of a child is unthinkably horrible. However I wonder how many potential “dangers” there were in the house that this child grew up in. Most households contain poisonous household cleaning supplies, sharp knives, unsecured 2nd story windows as well as foods & small objects that could be potential choking hazards. If the child had died while under his parents care at 18 years old, would we as the community be suing them? Absolutely not. Then why do we expect more of a University? If you don’t think you can trust your 18 year old to not do something completely stupid while on their own, then you should keep them at home or move to the town where the college is and have them live with you.
As adults it is our responsibility is help children grow into adulthood and learn to be responsible. Living away at college is an important step in that process. Living in the dorm can often serve as a middle step between your parents home and the big bad world. It is the University’s responsibility to provide a reasonable amount of guidance. That does not include keeping a 24 hour watch to make sure that young people don’t do something stupid.
May 28th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
The 18 year old adult student is the one who is responsible for their behavior. Probably not the parents nor the college. It is the adult student who makes/made the poor/incorrect choices in the first place that eventually led to a negative incident/confrontation occurring. With that said, VERY often the college administration tries to sweep issues under the rug because they do not want bad publicity. They want to keep the “kids” happy while the little darlings are becoming brilliant future leaders so that the graduates will support future brainwashing with contributions to the alumni program. College Admins prefer to have the residence hall staff deal with “quality of life issues” in-house more often than calling the college police/security unless the situation gets beyond the control of the staff. This is often the way people deal with problems at home, but, in a college environment (immature people living in groups) the wrong message can be conveyed & things can quickly spin out of control. Unfortunately, the college administration USUALLY is very liberal and DOES NOT support the college police/security or local police with enforcing the college regulations & state/municipal laws. College administrations & students often consider their police/security personnel to be oppressive Nazis not worthy of respect. The college Admin., students & parents completely ignore the fact that the police/security officers are simply reacting to what they observe/investigate or that other people complain about because the OFFENDER (Student/Faculty/Staff/Parent/Visitor) MADE POOR/INCORRECT CHOICES IN THE FIRST PLACE. The officers are NOT being oppressive Nazis. The officers are doing their jobs to protect everyone’s safety. This is when parents, students, faculty, staff & sooo many other “educated” irresponsible whiners want to make the officers out to be the bad guys. It always amazes me at how very poor colleges are at communicating the public safety regulations/laws to their populations, requiring compliance & how incompetent colleges are at advertising & supporting their police/security departments so that their campuses are as safe as possible & everyone knows it. Think about this idea. If colleges hired enough cops (Approx. 1 cop on duty for every 500-1000 people on campus), supported them w/ ongoing training/Equip. enforcement, hammered into peoples heads that they are personally responsible for their actions & utilized the best lighting/lock/camera technology, then colleges would be A LOT SAFER for everyone EXCEPT the REAL BAD GUYS, the OFFENDERS!!! Wow, what a concept! Can you imagine parents telling their kids, “Well, you wanted to be treated like an adult. Now you can go to court w/ the police like an adult & explain to everyone like an adult why you broke the law & did something stupid!” That’s what my wife said to one of our daughters when our darling screwed up. Can you imagine being a parent who is concerned about their “kids” safety while at college. Where do you think the parents will prefer to spend their money? Where the parents KNOW that the college is fairly strict and ACTS on protecting everyone or where the college SAYS public safety is their highest priority, but, the college doesn’t actually do what is needed to make it a reality? Stay alert, be safe & have fun. Best regards, Don, John 8:32, De Oppresso Liber
May 28th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
These “children” are 18 years of age– that is, they are recognized by law as adults. I understand poor desicion making can still go hand in hand with college freshmen due to their younger age, but the idea that the college needs to keep constant watch on every last student to make sure they don’t do something as morbidly stupid as unscrew a screen and climb out onto a ledge 7 floors up is ridiculous. Higher Learning is not day care; the college officials should be charged with keeping up a high level of safety for those living on campus, yes, but this court case made it sound like they should also rubber-ize the walls and fill in all power outlets. If your child is going to get drunk, remove screws from a window and climb out a 16 inch gap in order to get on a small ledge 7 floors up, then something was going to get him from the get-go. I feel for these parents in their grief, but it’s lawsuits like this that will leave institutions no choice but to buy into this whole “nanny state” idea in which we all need to be saved from ourselves instead of using any common sense.
May 28th, 2009 at 3:23 pm
in loco parentis was struck down in the 70’s, i believe. at that point in time colleges and universities no longer had the role of parent. it sad and i am sorry for their loss. being 18 and inexperienced in college is a condition many have faced and done stupid things while drunk and were fortunate enough to survive
May 28th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Did the school refund the money the parents paid for that semester of college? That is what they should have sued for. Did the school sue the parents for the damage to the window screen?
May 28th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
This country is paralyzed because of frivolous lawsuits after people refuse to accept responsibility for their own careless actions. Since more than 99.9% of student residents did not violate written contracted policy by climbing out on the ledges, why should the school be punished for the actions of the very very few. If I was religious, I would say this was God’s Will. If I was agnostic, I would say this was an example of Darwinism. If I was a sensible parent, I would say that my child had taken on irresponsible behavior that was dangerous, much like speeding in a car, or playing ‘chicken’ on the railroad tracks, or diving from a cliff into a shallow river.
May 28th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Everytime something happens to a kid everyone wants to play the blame game. The University should not be responsible. That kid took his first drink knowing the consequences. He took his 2nd drink still knowing what he was getting himself into. Not only do I believe there was more than alcohol that played a part in his death but I also believe he most likely didn’t act alone.
Therefore his parents should have a seat and think about this instead of trying to get money for the act their son did.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
They should ban students from attending universities so that this never happens again.
I hope the parents and their lawyer had to pay for wasting everyone’s time.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
What I have not seen during a quick survey through most of the comments is: “The window in the dorm room opened only about 16 inches, and an interior screen was screwed into the frame.” The student obviously had some coordination and determination to unscrew the screen and squeeze through the window. As many folks have already stated, there is no substitute for stupidity. My 2 cents.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
The schools are not liable if both the parents and child are nitwits.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Also, this is why other nation’s students far surpast the American student. We no longer have any respect for education or ourselves.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
I am continually dismayed at the fact that parents and my higher education colleagues seem to consider an 18 year old a child! We allow them to operate automobiles, vote in elections, enter the armed services…we need to stop infantalizing young adults. If you give a young adult some responsibility and hold them accountable, they will more likely than not rise to the challenge, learn, develop and grow.
While this event is tragic, it is in no way the responsibility of the college to keep students from removing screens and walking out on to ledges than it is to be sure they are looking both ways before crossing the street.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
The parents should buy a clue. The death was merely Darwin claiming his due.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
This was truly a tragic accident. It is easy to blame someone else. Who is at fault? I don’t know, but part of being an adult is making choices. Being an adult also means facing the consequences of the choices we make. For this person to go outside of a window on a two-foot ledge to smoke while he was drunk leads me to believe that this wasn’t the first time he had climbed out of the window. Was this something he chose to do often? I enjoy having the choice to open windows for fresh air, but even drunk I wouldn’t climb outside because I could fall. I know the consequences of my actions.
The question is, how much control do you want to give the university or any other entity for that matter of fact over your life or your child’s life.
By suing the college, the family prolonged grieving for their child and experienced the tragedy over and over again. Again, they chose to sue.
Sometimes we complain about being a true democracy or living in a capitalistic society whose fault is it? Where do we draw the line?
May 28th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
In an age where it appears that whatever happens is someone else’s fault, it is extremely heartening to notice the number of responses that lay the blame where it belongs — the individual who drank too much and then with significant effort managed to squeeze out onto the ledge.
My sincere sympathies go out to the student’s parents — losing a child is an experience that no parent should have to endure.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
The university is not responsible for students stupidity they are there to educate students so they wont do stupid things in the first place.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
My sympathy for the parents on the loss of their son but I don’t see how the school is at fault – 16″ window is not very large and a screwed-on screen does not make the building unsafe. If the student was underage, then where did he get the alcohol should be the 1st question. It is impossible, IMHO, to save people from themselves. 18 is NOT a child – they drive cars, vote and can DIE for their country. Hopefully, the fellow residents of the dorm and other students learn from this tragedy – falling from 7 stories can kill.
May 28th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
I find it interesting that virtually no one has commented about the lawyer who brought the suit on behalf of the parents – and may well have been the one who convinced the parents that it was their right (?duty) to sue. Anyone who has even been in a minor car accident knows the number of solicitations they get from lawyers.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
I spent this afternoon in academic misconduct hearings listening to my students whine about how it’s MY fault they shared files and turned in identical work. Sadly, this is typical of my university students – they’re absolutely the LAST in line who’re responsible for anything they do. I’m tired of it! How, why, and when did parents change? When I was a child, I was responsible for the consequences of my actions – good or bad. And by the time I turned 18, that notion of accountability was firmly entrenched. Why has that changed? Certainly no parent is doing his/her child a favor by deflecting accountability!
May 28th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
Are you people all self righteous bigots who were never 18 years old? About two of the posters have demonstrated knowledge of ACTUAL college students – they do stupid things (all of them), and guess what, they often ignore what their parents have taught them. If we can help prevent stupidity, (like not having opening windows on the 7th floor – what idiot thought that was a good idea?) why not?
As for you adherents of Darwinism – look up the development of the frontal lobe: many 18 year olds are not yet fully capable of making truly complex decisions , yet are capable of being educated (as their frontal lobe will finish development by the time they’re seniors . Get over yourselves you jerks!!! I hope none of you ever have a child who makes a fatal mistake – then you would know how [***] your outlook really is…”Darwin claiming his due” is an unintelligent and shallow comment.
Should the parents have sued for big bucks – no; did the University fail to properly ensure students safety by securing windows that have NO reason to open, yes. This country suffers from an abundance of self righteous [***], not kids who are being kids!
May 28th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
I have to tell you folks that after years of dealing with other peoples problems & encountering the irresponsible whining students, parents, faculty & staff I had become very cynical & dismayed with humanity. However, after reading the posts here, I have new hope. Thank you very much for restoring that hope that I thought was destroyed & lost forever. It’s nice to know that there are still some responsible, level-headed, people out there w/ common sense. Stay alert, be safe & have fun.
Sincerely,
Don
John 8:32, De Oppresso Liber, John 3:16
May 28th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
The student was almost certainly above 18, and therefore legally an adult…with all of the rights and responsibilities that entails. It is our job as parents to take our children from total dependence to total independence in 18 years, and if we fail to do that, we as parents have failed. This young man had no respect for the importance of rules, even self-evident rules like don’t climb out a window, much less rules about drinking. It is a tremendous shame, but it is no more the school’s fault than if the student had chosen to smoke a cigarette on the train tracks and didn’t move for an oncoming train.
May 28th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Someone earlier commented that the death was,”Darwin collecting his due”. COLD- but possibly correct.
Dismiss the grief of the parents if you can to look at the gestalt. I cannot imagine how thet must feel, losing a child. That aside, the idea that the parents would sue given the apparent facts is nauseating. In fact, their rush to seek redemption or whatever assures that I will not afford them any compassion. Why does an unfortunate situation such as this- suicide by stuopidity, triger their lawsuit? Greed disguised as Grief?
Need to place blame?
Did you see the part where the the report said,” To support their claims, the parents pointed out that the school had received prior reports of students going out onto the ledges and falling from them”. So the kid was as stupid as some other mythical kid at another mythical school… Hmmmm.
In this case, seems the ” facts” are:
Kid in college
Kid presented with rules and signs the notification
THEN
Kid drinks ( Blood A L= .18, twice legal limit to be legaly sloshed in many, if not most states)
Kid does something REALLY stupid things including those which led to his death and others that could have..
I suggest the reader consider at least the following.
1. don’t forget he was smoking from a pack that has the Surgeon generals’ warning that has been on all smokes since at least the 60’s.
2. Smoking explicitly prohibited in the dorm for safety reasons . Please see stats. on fires caused by drinking and smoking.
3. Drinking expresly prohibited in the dorm.
4> etc….
SO,
kid breaks rules of fact and common sense in the act
Kid dies.
Should be the end of a tragic story but, NO. parents demonstrate disregard for reality and give hint at why kid ignored the rules.
Sign of the times!!!
One of the accepted, but largely ignored services of America’s colleges and universities is to keep the immature off the streets for a while to allow the oportunity to mature. This kid needed more maturity and needed it quicker.
PARENTS- consider this isolated, but important lesson. Don’t think it cannot happen to you(us).
I wish I knew more about these parents.
If they are as disgusting as they seen, it would be good to know so we could use them as an object lesson.
If they simply are lost soulls lashing out in their greef, that would help, too.
In any event, this case just piles on top of the senseless crap that clogs the courts.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
I can’t believe there are people who actually think the school is responsible. How ludicrous! many more rational people have thankfully chimed in to put forth good arguments for why it was right and completely reasonable for these parents to LOSE the lawsuit. No matter how sad it was for them to lose their son to such a stupid irresponsible act, the fact is he broke rules, he had agreed to abide by. He or someone he knew had to have unscrewed the screen and take it out of the window to get out there. And most importantly. HE WENT OUT ON THE LEDGE.. He was out there to smoke, it was no accident on his part that he put himself in a dangerous position. NOTE – put himself! He’s not a little toddler who fell out of a window.. He’s a young adult whose parents must have thought he was grown up enough to leave home to go study at University. University is a place to learn and prepare oneself to become a positive contributing member of socity. Its not a babysitting service or a police state!
And I really don’t think all you people who think the school should have better monitoring and supervision to keep kids from drinking and doing stupid things like unscrewing and removing screens to go out on ledges from the 7th floor, REALLY would want to pay the price it would cost to have that kind of supervision even if you really thought it would be a good idea for young adults to be monitored that closely. Get real!
May 28th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
I have not read all the comments associated with this, yet another, example of the frivilous lawsuit. Obviously the parents do not believe, nor did they instill, that sense of personal responsibility we see all too often in our society. The school took precautions by limiting the access to the ledge – they did, in my opinion, more than enough to attempt to safeguard students. Although a sad situation, I would not hold the school liable for this student’s antics. The parents failed in their job – not the school. I applaud the court for its common sense decision, but I believe that the plaintiff’s attorney (& parents) should be held responsible for the costs of the suit.
May 28th, 2009 at 7:35 pm
This is absolutely insane and i’m shocked that a few individuals in this thread believe that the school is even remotely liable! What do those people suggest we do, build dorms without windows? Students would find a way to get through any window, short of putting bars in. This is very simply a case of our society tending away from personal responsibility. As an instructor I see it time and time again. As President Obama has said, we have to take more responsibility for ourselves, not less to improve our current economic situation.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Absolutely incredible that the case went anywhere at all. did a school official enter the room, open the window, hand the boy a case of beer, help him out on the ledge, and then push him off? No? Then how’s the school responsible? Even taking the incredible grief of losing a child into account, I just can’t fathom the thought process that led to the lawsuit.
May 28th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
Yea, I’m just another one saying “common sense” needs to prevail… and it didn’t in this case. The reality most likely is (we probably will never know) that this boy had done this (at least climbed out the window) before… He probably didn’t have the coordination to unscrew the screen, skunk drunk. He probably didn’t have the coordination to try to wiggle through 16 inches… But was it really his first time on the ledge for a smoke break? Still against the rules, still not a wise idea, but i did dumb stuff as a (sober) college student too…
The problem is when the environment changes around you (in this case, drunk) and you don’t have the ability to see that something’s different (I can’t stand up), nor the ability to process what that may mean (I may fall 7 stories.) Alcohol gives a feeling of invincibility, and “I’ve been out on the ledge before”–it’s an easy leap to “I can do it again.” That’s impaired judgement, and an all too sad side effect of beer.
No, not the school’s fault, but shame on them if they don’t look into alcohol awareness programs, or student counseling, RA/RD awareness training… They may not have a responsibility in the accident, but they DO have a [moral] responsibility moving forward.
My two cents.
May 29th, 2009 at 1:19 am
My opinion on the question is above.
Additionally,
To Dave’s point, I think most universities have student counseling and awareness programs in place and for some individuals, they are very helpful. But someone who drinks himself to .16 blood alcohol level and who risks his life to have a smoke on a 7th story ledge is likely not a person who would heed the warnings of the counselors or the RAs.
And Don – glad we restored a little of your faith in humanity!
I hope the parents can find some peace, along with the university personnel who had to respond to the incident, the parents, the lawsuit, the media, etc. It is a tragedy for everyone concerned.
May 29th, 2009 at 7:49 am
Why should the parents “go after” anyone? If the parents are not responsible for the “pre-adult” that their child has grown to be, then who is? In society of today, many people seemed to have raised their kids with the attitude that they don’t have to be responsible for their own actions. I have seen first hand what too much alcohol can do to a young person and innocents who happen to be in their way. With a blood alcohol level of .16, sounds like the parents are just fortunate that he only hurt himself and didn’t get behind the wheel and kill someone else. If that had happened, the parents might find themselves on “the other side” of a lawsuit.
May 29th, 2009 at 7:57 am
According to this article – http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1N1-110EB3CF08AA4AD0.html – Eric was 18. Although this is under the drinking age (21) in Kansas it does make him an adult. All too often we treat college students as children. College is not a nursery school, it is a place of higher learning. They should be expected to take responsibility as adults. Eric’s death was a tragedy, but he made those choices himself and paid the consequences.
May 29th, 2009 at 8:32 am
ignorant. i’m with lucinda, sue the parents, and don, this does restore one’s faith in humanity, doesn’t it? the arrogance of some people is only outdone by their stupidity. it’s a tragedy that can’t be undone no matter who you blame. even if the school had been held to blame, their son would not be back. this is one more mark against alcohol in my book. but it’s still legal, and more states than ever are considering lower drinking ages. you have kids making goofy decisions anyway, give them booze, and you have the receipe for tragedy, sooner or later, every time.
sigh.
May 29th, 2009 at 8:45 am
In answer to the suggestion of locking or barring the windows, this is probably against fire code. If a student died from a fire in the dorm because he couldn’t get out of the window to climb down a firefighter’s ladder or some such, chances are parents would sue the University for that one as well. And in my opinion they would have a better case there than the parents in this article.
It’s troubling to see stuff like this happening on college campuses and in many other places. I think it was the student’s fault for making poor choices. His parents may also be indirectly to blame, although I don’t think I could fairly judge without knowing every detail of the kid’s upbringing. However, if it is like a lot of cases, the parents protected the son from every little thing while he was growing up, never allowing him to stumble and have to get up on his own. I would personally rather let my kid fall off his bike, get bumps and bruises, get his heart broken and have to get back up on his own and realize why those things happened, when he is young and not so much is at stake, than send him off to college in such a childish state of mind and have him lose his life. A kid who knows from early childhood that his actions have consequences will think a little more about his actions, but it seems many parents can’t stand to see their children get hurt in any way, even if allowing those (literal and figurative) bumps and scratches will make their children stronger and more resilient in the long run.
No kid is perfect and even the responsible ones make mistakes sometimes, but the University cannot be blamed for every misstep of every student on its campus. Suppose the University DID police the dorms constantly for signs of underage drinking and removed window screens. Might those same parents be suing for invasion of privacy when their son calls to tell them that his room is searched every day by campus police?
All this being said, I do feel very sorry for the parents who lost their son. No matter how stupid their lawsuit was or what mistakes they may have made as parents, they are in pain from their loss and I am sympathetic. I hope they can put this behind them, grieve naturally and recover.
May 29th, 2009 at 9:01 am
There is an odd irony to this tragedy. A student who apparently broke the law by drinking illegally breaks another “rule” by removing a screen and climbing onto a dangerous ledge, also a forbidden place. Yet, he did all of this for the purpose of “smoking a cigarette.” Strangely, he decided to OBEY the rule that he should not smoke in the building. Now why would that have been a deciding factor for climbing onto that ledge? Hard to imagine.
May 29th, 2009 at 9:49 am
This reminds me of the story about the 5 year old who played with matches, consequently setting his house on fire, his 2 year old sister perishing within. His parents blamed MTV and the cartoon Beavis and Butthead for an episode where one of the characters goes on about how cool fire is. My questions at the time included: Why does their 5 year old have access to matches? Why are they letting him watch MTV? It’s akin to blaming the I Love Lucy episode “Lucy Tells the Truth” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1wLAViYa-c) if, after watching it, their son then stabbed his sister while playing with knives they kept where their son had access. MTV then banned the episode, moved the program to a later time slot, and inserted a disclaimer at the show’s opening not to attempt anything portrayed in the absurd, fictional, animated serries.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:04 am
It is unfortunate that a student lost his life due to behavior resulting from alcohol consumption. Since the student who was of appropriate age signed a contract that clearly defines the regulations of dormitory living as set forth by the college, the student is responsible for his/her actions. The parents should place blame on the person(s) who supplied the alcoholic beverage(s) in violation of dormitory housing contract regulations, Maybe their child was the sole supplier of the beverage(s), Maybe someone else – a roommate or classmate – could have warned the student that he/she had enough to drink. Let’s hope that this tragic story will be a lesson to others.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:17 am
David L – probably as to not set off the smoke alarms?
May 29th, 2009 at 10:17 am
My guess is that some unscrupulous lawyer got a hold of the parents and told them they should sue.
Of course it is ridiculous to think the University should be held responsible for the students misconduct. Personally I would not stay, or want my child to stay in a room where the window could not be opened to let fresh air in. It is very unfortunate that one or a few nonsensical incidents can cause everyone to lose their personal freedoms/rights.
If the University were deliberately trying to hide a dangerous situation or encouraging one, that would be different, but this is a situation of a student not using common sense and the rest of the community should not be penalized for it. Everyone should take responsibility for themselves in these situations – our society is much to sue happy, and the result is we all lose.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:20 am
The loss of a child under any circumstance is tragic; the grief and pain that remain with the parents, family and friends of the deceased never go away and neither will the stigma of students falling to their deaths at this school. Tragic loss and deep seeded grief can make a person do things that they would no do normally.
Who says that the parents didn’t instill good sense and values in this young man? Was this his first time to drink? Did he have a problem with substances? Whether or not the parents of this student taught him about the problems of alcohol is really not the question. Everyone can pretty much agree that once the child/young adult has left home we were given the tools to use from our parents while growing up; we all have experienced a different world from what we were brought up in once we left home. I for one am surprised that my life did not end as early as this young man’s because I know I did some really stupid things when I left home. I have witnessed first-hand parents who allow their underaged children to drink while in their presence. These children have the opinion that they are invicible and nothing bad will ever happen to them because their parents are allowing this action; these kids are good students and have good family values, but both the parent and children use bad judgement when it comes to drinking alcohol. I don’t understand how these parents can use this bad judgement when everything else they do is so great for the schools and the community.
My sympathies go out to the parents, family and friends of this student for their very tragic and life altering loss and I give them the benefit of the doubt that they did what they could as their son was growing up and teaching him about the do’s and don’t’s of life. But this does not constitute a lawsuit against an entity which the student chose and by signing his admission and housing applications he chose to abide by the rules of the school and housing.
If there is blame, it should be on the person/people who supplied the alcohol to an underaged young adult and on the young adult who chose to drink the alcohol. There are no words to describe the pain one feels when the blame lies with those we love the most and lose too soon.
May 29th, 2009 at 10:44 am
If the student is 18 or over he is a legal adult, and, tragic as the outcome was, he was responsible for his own actions.
May 29th, 2009 at 11:07 am
I believe the University should not have to carry the burden of this unfortunate accident. Students are going away to school to become responsible, educated young adults. This incident will be a lesson to those who do not have respect for rules and regulations. There is a reason the window only open 16 inches and has a screen screwed into the frame. This student had to put effort into breaking the rules in order for this tragedy to happen. The University can not be held responsible for students breaking rules set for their safety.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
I’m sorry that they lost their son and most likely the lawsuit was brought against the school because the
parents are so angry inside that they wanted to take their anger out on someone. Anyone.
It makes me wonder what his parents may have taught this young man about responsibility since they’re blaming their son’s reckless behavior on the school, when its obviously not the school’s fault that this happened.
I do have to give them the benefit of a doubt here because we all do crazy things when we’re really hurt and really angry.
Amy Hughes, you need to be more compassionate. These people just lost their son.
How would you feel if it had been one of your family members who’d died in a tragic accident?
I doubt that your response would have been anywhere near as cold and heartless.
If we don’t humble ourselves, life has a way of doing it for us.
Live and learn.
May 29th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I have worked in the residence hall system as a college administrator for close to 17 years. In my years of experience, I have seen so many students make stupid decisions, regardless of the warnings, the policies, the continual staff warning, etc. Residence hall staff do everything that can be done to assure the safety of the residents, no one wants anyone to die on their clock, that is just not good for the community or the university.
Sometimes it is an individual that makes bad decisions. If this student was underage, he already broke state and federal laws by consuming alcohol, regardless of who served him (as he may have had a fake I.D. like so many underage folks). He made this decision that ultimately allowed him to think it was o.k. to go out on the building ledge to smoke. I am sure that this is not the first time he did it either. Unfortunately, the combination of alcohol and common sense led to his death.
It is ridiculous to blame anyone else. Who else can we blame? It is ubsurd to think that anyone else could be held responsible for this boy’s death but him. Are we going to blame the tobacco industry for selling cigarettes (because this kid really wanted to smoke)? Are we going to blame the company that designed the screen (even though it was screwed in to prevent folks from going out the window)? Are we going to blame the architect for desiging a building with a ledge? Come on. Let’s be real, this kid lost his common sense before he lost his life.
No where in the world is there someone standing outside of any building above 2 stories reminding people to not go out on the ledge to smoke as it could result in their death. The reason why? It’s a given.
It is time that the youth (particularly in the U.S.) are held responsible for their poor decisions! There is way too much privilege given to young people these days and the audacity of this kid to think that it was o.k. to go out on the ledge (thinking he is invinceble) rather than just walking downstairs and going outside to smoke. No one else is to blame, the parents need to take responsibility for the bad decision making their child had and stop trying to blame others.
You do not need to warn me about walking right out on the highway, it’s common sense!
Again, I have worked with students for a very long time and some just make bad decisions, it’s o.k. most of the time, they learn from their mistakes, sometimes, unfortunately it ends tragic.
My condolenscenses go out to the family and it is a horribly outcome, but an outcome that resulted from the bad decision of this kid!
May 29th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
What a sad commentary on our weak (and growing weaker) society. Even Rome for all of it’s strength and military might eventually grew fat and ridiculous (and consequently fell). So now it is our turn. Personal responsibility has been made non-existant by our ability of lawyers to get even mass murderers and corrupt financial professionals off even the most obvious of crimes.
Nothing will change natural selection however. If you are not smart enough to teach your kid right from wrong, nature will takes care of it for you. I feel badly for any parent that looses a child, but it won’t make it any better to get a few million in damages from an already stressed educational institution. But that is where the beginning of the end comes, when a society has to spend more resources on the non-contributors than on the potential contributors. And a lawsuit will not prevent this from happening again.
John McIntyre
May 29th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Clearly this was a terrible tragedy that could have been prevented on a number of fronts. First, we need to do a better job of teaching our children about the dangers of high risk drinking. Most crimes on campuses, and many accidents, are directly related to high risk drinking because people simply don’t make good decisions when they are under the influence. Parents, instead of trying to teach your kids to “just say no,” we need to teach them about the effects of alcohol and encourage moderation if they choose to drink. As a society, we’ve failed miserably to prepare our children to deal with the college life.
Based on the limited information in the article (I haven’t read the court decision), it appears that the institution took reasonable steps to mitigate harm from the ledge. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the school took all of the right steps. Who says that 16″ is the right height to preclude someone from climbing out of a window? I don’t know, but I do that sometimes, reasonable just isn’t good enough.
sjh
May 29th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
I can’t believe those parents would blame the school for their son’s negligent act, he should not have been drinking in the first place. That’s what caused the accident.
May 29th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
I would have been in support of the parents winning, cause that would have eventually led to prohibition. Could you imagine a nation in which major institutions are liable for all the results of someone’s actions under the influence of alcohol? That would flip this whole country upside down. I’d say, let’s do it; but it’s not practical or probable.
My last thought is, what evidence suggests the student wanted to go back inside? Sounds to me like he enjoyed his last cigarette and plunged to his death on purpose. Was there any evidence to prove otherwise?
May 31st, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Poor judgement impaired by alcohol always results in a tragedy. While the parents are looking to blame the loss of their son on someone or something the real lesson here is that our kids go off to college only knowing that drinking is almost always done to excess. We give them classes in school and orientation but they grow up knowing that alcohol is a forbidden fruit and they desire it. And they consume it in great quantities.
Growing up in a house where my parents and grandparents held to european traditions wine, beer, and spirits were always consumed at meals. We we taught that moderation is okay. My brothers and sisters and I always had a small glass of wine or beer at dinner on Sundays. I have passed tis on to my own children in hopes they will learn this lesson. I have two daughters in college and am not deluded to think that they do not drink to excess. I can only hope they are exercising good judgement when they do drink. That is all we can hope for as parents.
June 1st, 2009 at 9:34 am
Hypothetical case; Student drinks out in the woods, climbs tall tree and falls, sustaining critical injuries. Who do you sue? What remedies would prevent the incident from ever happening again? I am sorry to say that our society, (or maybe insurance companies), focuses on preventing every inconceivable negative event in life. Utopia is desirable but unrealistic and certain realities in life should be obvious. The simple fact that the act had occurred previously with similar consequences should have provided the ultimate lesson. What ever makes people think that they are exempt from the laws of gravity?
June 1st, 2009 at 10:39 am
After all this, those parents are still left with one sad reality – their child is now deceased due to an unfortunate accident after a series of stupid choices that HE made. Now, if they really wanted something good to come from this frivilous lawsuit, then they need to now look w/in themselves and take this opportunity to remind other parents of college aged adults to continue to teach their children about the choices they make. I have a daughter entering high school next year and me and my husband have already begun teaching her about consequences of actions. We have given her the tools to make good decisions but one thing we cannot do is be there to make sure she makes those good decisions. We must now trust our teachings and trust that she will not make stupid mistakes. But, we also pray that even when she does make an occasional mistake, it’s one she can walk away from. In the end, once a child is no longer a child, they must take responsibility for their own actions. Parents, train up a child in the way he should go and when he is older, he will not depart from those teachings. And parents, let’s not blame others for the choices our “children” make.
Unfortunately for the univeristy, now that this lawsuit has happened they are probably now in the midst of damage control. I agree with what has already been said, the university is not at fault. They posted rules, i’m sure they had dorm meetings, freshman orientation and all campus’ now have prevention programs for alcohol, sexual issues and other things that can happen when so many diverse populations convene on one campus. So, as far as the university goes – it’s job is done. Now parents just need to raise their kids and quit relying on others (i.e.: church, public school, juvenile detentions) to raise THEIR children.
June 1st, 2009 at 4:59 pm
I’m sure that students at the college have also had car accidents, so maybe none should be allowed to bring cars on campus. Also some have failed casses, so maybe none should enroll. One of these days, people should become responsible for their own choices and actions.
June 8th, 2009 at 9:44 am
I tried to read as many of these as possible before making a comment. I have worked in higher education and left the field for reasons like this. Higher education is where adults go to further themselves in order to better their lives and find a career. It was stated that there is no respect for education. I find that to be true also. Every one has a mindset that higher education is a right but it’s not, it’s a privilege. A college degree use to mean something but now every one demands one. Most students go into college with the idea that they will drink and party all they want. As long as they keep a 2.0 they can graduate (and that’s really not that hard to do). Most parents knowingly accept that their student (not a child) will drink and they look the other way. I never will understand why we turn such a blind eye to underage drinking. It is against the law last time I checked.
Society says we can do whatever we want and there are no consequences. But this situation says that is not so. Until we learn as a society that we have the responsibility for our own actions this sort of tragedy will be all too common place. I do not have children, if fact I am only 26 and graduated with my masters in higher education last May. But as a child I grew up working and farming. I have been working all my life and that is the only reason I am where I am today. A society of hand outs and free passes only creates spoiled children no matter what their age. Responsibility almost always leads to maturity.
To all of those in this thread who see the fallacy and recognize the truth… I salute you!
June 12th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Some of us remain in higher education after decades of joys and frustrations. No area of endeavor is without situations such as the one that precipitated this discussion. Some of us hope to influence the students’ lives for the better, as we recognize that we are not merely conveying the subject matter to the students. You may have learned about that in your graduate studies, Colin. You left the field, but claim to have just graduated. Maybe you did not hang around long enough to experience the plethora of rewards of education. Perhaps discussions of this type of incident within one or more of the general education courses might have influenced this student’s behavior. Even some of the students who withdrew from or failed my courses have shared with me the profound life lessons they learned through the experience. You never know what one may learn through or be influenced by any given experience.
So by the way, note the following correction: ……college degree USED to mean…..not college degree use to mean …… and there are other issues…..
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
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July 24th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Someone below wrote: “Although, accountibilty is the individual’s responsiblity, when a young person is drinking in the dorms apparently under no supervision one must be responsible and accountable for the outcome. These young KIDS come to college to learn and experience life away ”
So the college now has to put a staff member in the room of each student to provide “supervision” 24/7? Think about what you are saying. Do parents sleep in the same room with their young adult kids? Here’s a solution: If you aren’t ready to be personally responsible for your actions, don’t go to college. Stay at home with your parents so your siblings can sue them when you kill yourself.
July 24th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
I’m a parent of 10 children. One attended college, 1 is currently a junior, 1 is a sophomore and another begins her freshman year this fall 09. I work at a university and deal with legal adults (18 and up students) who are children in reason, act and thought whose parents allowed their sons/daughters to arrive at college in this manner. The student is first to blame then the parents. The students blame is proven by the fact he made choices that resulted in his death. The parents childish actions to sue the university substantiate their blame and prove their son was not ready to attend college as his choices were likewise childish. The parents allowed their son to remain childish in thought action and reason because they are childish in thought action and reason. You are a product of your environment.
July 27th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
This is the case of a young kid doing something very stupid. Unfortunately it happens. We all did a few crazy things that we can look back on and say… “I can’t believe I did that…What was I thinking.” In this case, it was a tragic outcome… My heart goes out to the parents and his family. It also goes out to the school… Nobody wanted this to happen…
December 9th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
i dont think the school should be held responsible its the parents fault for not teaching there kids how to control and handle them selfs and plus the contrat says dont climb out the widows
December 31st, 2009 at 11:14 am
The university is not to blame. They set all sorts of rules to prevent this from happening, including no drinking on campus, but it is very hard to control the thousands of students that live on campus. They do try, however, because many students got caught and written up while drinking in the dorms when I lived there. The blame rests on the student, who made the bad decisions to drink and climb out onto the ledge. Not only does KU have the rules in place, but there are also reminders on all windows that they are not to be removed and you are not to go onto the roof/ledge. But parents need to be instilling a sense of responsibility in their kids before they come to college. My parents made sure I knew from a very young age that I COULD NOT drink until I was 21, and I listened. I knew better than to not follow the rules, and my education was more important to me than sneaking drinks into the dorm.
The parents need to look at the situation again and realize that the University does all that they can, but students have the responsibility to follow the rules and make good decisions.