HigherEdMorning.comSchool allows guns on campus

School allows guns on campus

July 28, 2009 by Taylor Hannigan
Posted in: From the Courts, In this week's e-newsletter, Latest News & Views

The old rule at Michigan State University completely banned guns from campus. The new rule allows permit holders to carry concealed weapons — although there is a catch.

By a 7-1 vote, the school’s board of trustees decided people with permits can carry concealed weapons on campus property. There’s a limit, though: Guns still can’t be brought into campus sports venues or inside campus buildings.

The school says it made the change to smooth a conflict with state law, which generally allows permit holders to carry a weapon but bans weapons from college dorms, classrooms and sports venues.

Right now, only Utah has a law saying students at public schools can take guns to class.

Does allowing guns on campus make schools safer or more dangerous? Tell us what you think in the comments section below.

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  • CCW

    I am glad to see that MSU is taking steps in the right direction, but I disagree with the state law prohibiting CC in the classrooms and sports venues. The dormitories make sense because there are many under-age or non-CCW permit holders living in the same residence, but the ban for classrooms and sports venues is un-constitutional. The same people that are legally carrying concealed in the grocery stores, movie theaters, and sitting next to you on the subway can’t be trusted in classrooms or at football games? Wrong. They are the same people, regardless of their location, so they should have the same rights in all of those places.

  • http://dispositif.wordpress.com james

    This is the sort of question that should cease to be asked. Every time it’s asked, it gets the same binary of results. Nothing is resolved. What we should be looking at is what’s underneath it all.

  • guitarist1957

    If people can’t bring the weapons into buildings or to sports venues, I doubt that the number of licensed guns on campus will change much. The question will be, how do you prevent the guns from getting into the buildings and classrooms? Unless every entrance is equipped with metal detectors and armed guards, guns will get into these venues. If the weapons are held by responsible people, and these people are not known to carry a weapon, there will be less danger than if they are held by irresponsible people and those who brag about having a weapon. Responsible people are likely to follow the rules, though, so it will be the irresponsible ones that actually bring the guns into classrooms and sports venues. And the braggarts will attract elements that will want to steal the guns and use them for illegal activities.

    A responsible person with a gun on campus could provide additional safety for others should some crazed shooter like the one at VA Tech present himself; the crazy person could be shot by the responsible person, if that person kept calm and had a clear shot. However, how many people have that presence of mind?

  • Jerald Hughes

    It doesn’t make it safer with students carrying weapons. There have been studies showing this.

  • http://www.bates.edu/~msemon Mark Semon

    I wish I could remember the exact details, but a few years ago, at a law school in the south, some fellow started shooting people. He was stopped by a person with a concealed weapons permit who retrieved their firearm from their car. To receive a concealed weapon permit a person must take a 6 to 8 hour course and do some practice shooting under the guidance of an instructor. Courses vary but the several I’ve taken have been excellent. Receiving the permit also requires a fairly extensive background check. One of my friends, who taught at Iowa State, was gunned down by a Master’s Degree candidate who didn’t pass his oral exam. I personally would feel safer having people carrying guns who had concealed weapons permits. I didn’t use to think this way but the two incidents above, plus others, changed my mind. From what I’ve seen, shooters are cowards and can be quickly stopped by someone with a firearm. That’s my $.02, which I expect will be very unpopular.

  • Bob

    It sounds like there is the potential for a modern-day gunfight at the OK Corral – or in this case, the Not Safer, Not OK, College. On the other hand, don’t all of us long for the good old days of the wild west when everyone was armed so they could take care of themselves?

  • http://www.bates.edu/~msemon Mark Semon

    Dear Jerald:

    I’m not familiar with any of the studies to which you refer. Can you send me a link to one, or give me a reference?

    ps: perhaps only faculty/staff should be allowed to carry a firearm.

  • Paul

    I don’t understand this rule…what is the point of having a concealed weapon on campus if you can’t go inside a building with it? Are you just armed & roaming school grounds? Citizens on patrol???

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  • John Howard

    I agree with Mark S. The concealed carry process is pretty rigorous, in North Carolina anyway. 10 hours of class time, a supervised shooting exam, a three-month waiting period after applying for the permit to allow law enforcement plenty of time to check your background. As a CCW permit holder, I’d like to be able to carry a smallish concealed handgun into the classroom, or at the very least to keep one in the glove compartment of my vehicle parked nearby. Neither option is permitted by current NC law. Even carrying a stun gun onto campus is a misdemeanor, so I’m limited to pepper spray and/or a baton if I want to stay within the law.

    I do think that any changes to the law should restrict firearms carrying to faculty & staff who have state-issued CCW permits and who are also registered to carry with their respective schools. Students with guns is a scary prospect to me! Some come to class with hangovers, etc., affecting judgment. And I have had a few incidents in class where a student’s temper flared over a disciplinary action that I felt was needed. I’d hate to see an angry student pull a gun on his teacher in class over something like that.

  • Kevin Rosecrans

    The problem is that people are already carrying concealed weapons rules or no rules. If they are really concealed no one know they have them. I would rather no one be carrying on campus except the police. Its bad enough going to bars and restaurants and wondering who you need to look out for. The classroom should be free from this kind of stress.

  • Charley

    I totally agree, if a person, no matter staff/instructor/student, has taken the training and holds a valid CCW then we are safer. Statistics show that in states that have CCW there is less violent crime. Especially in the student environment there are those that prey on the weaker through assault, rape, robbery. I have a CCW from another state but is no good here in Illinois and I am staff. I keep it in my vehicle in a legal carry and should the occasion arise I have confidence in my training and life experience to protect those around me at all costs, I feel that it is a responsibility inherent with the CCW, it is not a joke, not something you brag about or even make known. IT is my prayer that I never have to use it, but I know it is there should it come to preservation of life.

  • Kris

    I’m really disappointed in some of the responses on this post. I would expect people involved in Higher Education to be able to discuss on the basis of fact versus emotion.

    Jerald says “It doesn’t make it safer with students carrying weapons. There have been studies showing this.”

    Really? Where…I’ve studied this extensively and there are no studies like that…at least none that are based on fact.

    Bob says “it sounds like the potential for a modern day gunfight at the OK Corral”

    Actually, no it doesn’t. Anti-gun activists have been using that line and “there will be blood running in the streets!” and “simple disagreements will cause a hail of gunfire!”. And you know what? Everytime concealed carry is passed into law…IT DOESN”T HAPPEN…no rash of gun fights. No blood in the streets. What does happen is people take responsibility for themselves (imagine…colleges teaching THAT) and crime goes DOWN.

    Kevin says “Its bad enough going into bars and restaurants wondering who you need to look out for”.

    Huh? Why? Don’t you realize that you are next to people all day, every day with concealed carry? And nothing happens. Don’t you realize that CCW holders have a crime rate that is less that a 1/10th of a percent of the general population? Don’t you realize that police have a higher crime rate and accidentally shoot people at a rate MANY times the rate of CCW holders. You need to research the facts.

    John says “Students with guns is a scary prospect to me!”

    CCW holder or not, that statement makes no sense. No one is talking about handing guns out willy-nilly to students. These would be only students who are legally adults, have taken the proper courses and background checks and are issued a CCW. These same students who trust to drive cars (a deadly weapon to be sure), vote (and that can be WAY more damaging to society than a gun) and serve in the military…you don’t trust them on campus? The same students who we trust to be in the military and defend our country? The same students who are law abiding CCW holders off campus…do you really think they will suddenly become homicidal maniacs when they step on campus.

    I really don’t understand some people’s the inability to separate law abiding people who use guns legally to defend life and limb from criminals and murderers.

  • Manny

    Mark, I couldn’t agree with you more. The truth is that firearms are used far more often and successfully for self defense purposes than they are for crime. The sad truth is that anti gun groups, individuals and most media absolutely refuse to discuss and disseminate the facts. The reason is simple, the facts refute all their arguments for gun control. Instead they use scare tactics, false and/or misleading statistics and outright lies because it’s the only way they can push their agenda.

    For some real, factual information and statistical analysis, I would encourage everyone to review the research study conducted by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, “Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun”. Here are some links with interesting factual information:


    I’ve owned firearms for many years and have used them for personal protection, competitive and recreational shooting and for instruction as a certified firearms instructor. I’ve met many wonderful people and formed many great friendships as a result. I’ll be the first to admit that firearms aren’t for everyone. Owning, handling and/or using them comes with a tremendous responsibility with the potential for serious consequences when used. It’s a responsibility that shouldn’t be taken lightly by anyone and that responsibility includes a commitment to training, proper care and use and an understanding of firearm laws. Having said that, they’re probably the most effective way of protecting oneself in a situation where you may face grave bodily harm and/or death.

    The bottom line is, regardless of whether or not people like guns or their reason(s), the right to own firearms is afforded to all of us through the second amendment. That right shouldn’t be restricted or diminished for anyone (with the exception of a few caveats such as; (ex)criminals, mentally handicapped or insane, etc.) for any reason. The solutions are simple; if you don’t like them, don’t own them, and if you use them improperly or for committing a crime, then you need to be held responsible and accountable. That’s what’s supposed to happen in an open and free society such as the one we supposedly live in…..

  • http://www.okstate.edu Bubba Buckshot

    When another bad guy (who does NOT obey the laws) starts shooting up your class mates or fellow diners and you look around for the policeman to protect your ass, be very grateful for that gun permit holder sitting next to you. He/she has been trained to shoot and more than likely will have the presence of mind to do the right thing… protect him/herself and everyone else around!

    The best example of the politically correct and do-gooder story is the Luby Cafeteria massacre a few years ago in Texas, when a female, I believe off-duty police woman, let her mom tell her to leave her gun in the car after she saw the little sign – “NO GUNS ALLOWED”. It was just another beautiful day in paradise, having lunch with her parents, when a BAD guy, disobeying all laws, drove his pickup truck through the front door. After shooting, reloading & shooting his rifles & pistols, again & again, 20+ peace loving, law abiding diners laid dead, including the police woman’s parents. She said if she would have had her gun, she could have ended the situation within the first few seconds.

    Call me paranoid, but because of that story, I have a gun nearby at all times, except where there are metal detectors.
    Yes, I have been shooting guns for 50 years, but I also went ahead with the full day of Conceil & Carry training and learned several things.
    On my campus, I know several students & staff members who carry guns… some with, some without permits. Some may ignore the “little signs”, but I will be glad they are prepared for that bad guy, who also will ignore the little sign.
    Member of Emergency Management Team at major university

  • Kevin Rosecrans

    Kris, its not the people with concealed permits that i worry about. Its not legal in Oklahoma to carry a gun into a bar conceal permit or not. I was not referring to people who legally carry with permits but the rest who carry concealed weapons with out training. Having been shot struggling with a idiot in a bar in a must do or die situation, I do worry about the people around me with weapons. I would rather not in class. I do have a carry permit and seldom take the gun with me. I just stay away from places where I might be needed. While I believe that If more people carried weapons we would have less crime I still believe that school should be a gun free zone. Then of course there is Columbine(sp).
    There are always exceptions. I was speaking from my experience.

  • Kris


    I’m sorry you were shot but I think that is clouding your judgement on this.

    Concealed carry being allowed someplace has absolutely nothing to do with people being idiots. The fact remains that if there is NO concealed carry…only the law abiding will obey the law. The criminals and idiots will still carry guns. But they are criminals and idiots and you can’t legislate them away.

    You say you seldom carry and don’t go places it might be needed…can you predict where it might be needed? Can you predict when you might need your fire extinguisher in your house or when you might need your car insurance? A concealed carry license is insurance against being at the mercy of someone who may harm you…it isn’t a magic talisman that makes all bad things go away nor is it license to go be Rambo.

    Your next to last statement “I still believe that school should be a gun free zone” really doesn’t stand up if you think it through.

    Tell me…where do mass shootings take place? I’ll give you a hint…they don’t happen at police stations, at gun ranges, at NRA conventions, at military rifle ranges, or at gun shows. They DO happen at schools (gun free zone), corporations (gun free zone), post offices (gun free zone), memorials (gun free zone).

    The NRA Convention was just held in May in Pheonix…there were nearly 50,000 people there and the vast majority carried concealed or carried openly. And? Nothing happened. I can guarantee you that was the safest public place in the nation.

    I still think you are thinking that people carrying a gun will somehow cause them to lose their ability to control themselves…maybe that’s true for the hopolophobes out there. But hard statistice from the US Justice Department (no friend of concealed carry) prove that people who have their CCW are MUCH more law abiding than the general population.

  • Hank Walker

    This issue was considered in the Texas Legislature this year, but it died in the session-ending rush. The Texas A&M faculty voted overwhelmingly against concealed carry on campus, and the majority of students (rated most conservative by Princeton Review) did as well. The Texas campus police chiefs association also came out against the proposal. The thinking of faculty is that it is far more likely for guns on campus to be used in suicides, by jilted lovers, horseplay, etc., than to shoot a crazed gunman. We have suicidal students and lovers quarrels every day. We don’t have crazed gunman every day. In fact we had two students murdered with a handgun this year in a jilted lover situation. The fact that the Texas Legislature wouldn’t even consider an amendment to allow students to request dorm *roommates* without guns shows you that this is all part of a national NRA campaign to push concealed carry everywhere with no limits, not about increasing student safety. As Sen. Rodney Ellis of Houston said, “When there is an alcohol-related tragedy on campus, you don’t hear claims that giving students a 12-pack is the solution.”

  • AntiCitizenOne

    It’s not about the crazed gunmen ON campus, or the lover’s quarrel, or even angst about grades that people probably deserve 99.9% of the time. (To the teacher, ever hope that that kid actually didn’t beat you to death over a grade?)

    It’s about trying to defend yourself going to and from campus. Just recently, two VCU students were robbed at gunpoint just one block away from the main campus, both students being over 21 years, the legal age to obtain a handgun permit. Additional reports are saying that they were walking back from the campus when they were attacked. Thankfully, the robbers did not take their lives, but you never know what could happen – I certainly do NOT intend to place mercy at the hands of an armed aggressor. If those students had been armed, the outcome might have been different.

    And quit misleading people about gunfights and hormone-addled teens. No one is saying “forcibly arm college students” because that would be against the law. And gunfights? Well, you can also retreat from a gunfight while still engaging, but where the heck have we seen “stray gunfire” from a self defense situation?

  • Teacher

    I am a college teacher. If I knew a single student in my class could legally carry the gun into the classroom, I would announce the first day of class “Everyone gets an A, and I hope everyone enjoyed the course.” Some students get angry enough over grades to kill if they just had the means at hand

  • John Howard

    Agreed. On a couple of occasions over the past few years I’ve had students get angry enough over being kicked out of class (for repeated falling asleep or some other similar infraction that justifiably warranted expulsion) that they stood up in the middle of the classroom, pointing their finger and yelling at the top of their lungs about what a sorry @#$%*! I was. I’d hate to think what might have happened had the same students had loaded guns at their disposal.

  • Kris

    Teacher and John Howard –

    Honestly, I think your logic is being clouded by supposition and emotion rather than facts and stats. I don’t mean to be rude, but when you look at statistics and facts (as shown in several posts above) you’ll see that your arguments don’t hold water.

    Every day, in everyone’s life, we encounter people who are irrational, quick to anger and immature…whether they are 18 or 80. And an emotional arguement is “I’d hate to think what might have happened if they had loaded guns at their disposal”.

    We’re not talking about that at all, though. We ARE talking about allowing concealed carry on campus USING THE SAME RULES THAT WE USE OFF OF CAMPUS.

  • Kris

    Teacher and John Howard –

    Honestly, I think your logic is being clouded by supposition and emotion rather than facts and stats. I don’t mean to be rude, but when you look at statistics and facts (as shown in several posts above) you’ll see that your arguments don’t hold water.

    Every day, in everyone’s life, we encounter people who are irrational, quick to anger and immature…whether they are 18 or 80. And an emotional arguement is “I’d hate to think what might have happened if they had loaded guns at their disposal”.

    We’re not talking about that at all, though. We ARE talking about allowing concealed carry on campus USING THE SAME RULES THAT WE USE OFF OF CAMPUS.

    1) Must be 21 or older
    2) Must pass a detailed background check administered by the US FBI
    3) Most states have a training and written test

    We’re not talking about putting guns in the hands of everyone. We ARE talking about allowing people who are carrying guns EVERYWHERE ELSE (and are very safe with those guns) to bring them to campus. There is no magic pixie dust that is sprinkled on people when they get on campus that makes them raving homicidal maniacs.

    Statistics show that CCW holders (including college aged kids who are over 21) have a MUCH lower rate of crime (by a factor of 10) than the general population. In fact, CCW holders have a MUCH lower rate of accidents with guns than police officers…who supposedly are “experts”.

  • John Howard

    Kris, my logic is “clouded” by one thing, and one thing only — experience. My arguments hold water perfectly; what doesn’t is a number of the analogies you’ve used in previous posts here.

    I’d also have to say that if you think a typical 21-year-old has the same emotional maturity and response as someone 10, 20, 30 years older, then you evidently just haven’t done much living around people of various ages. Like ‘teacher’, I’d object most strenuously to any measure allowing students to carry guns concealed in the classroom. I think also that if you were to take a poll of instructors and professors nationwide, this same objection would be held by the vast majority of those polled — with good reason.

  • AntiCitizenOne

    Guns are just a tool, just like a knife, or fists, or a rope, or any blunt object. If the student really wanted to kill you, he/she would have found a means to do so, even if they cannot get a gun.

    How about we just cut off our hands just for everyone’s safety, how do you feel about that?

    Maybe you can try and have those rowdy-ass students expelled from the school if you think you want us to shape up.

    We also have a few 25, 28, and 30 year olds in our medical school class here who also have handgun permits, I wonder what you think their maturity level is…

    A right is absolute and non-negotiable, you don’t restrict it because of potential actions, you restrict actual actions. You cannot shout fire in a crowded theater, but that doesn’t mean you tape over everyone’s mouth before they enter. EMS personnel do come to the school as students and as workers, carrying utility knives and needles (well, on the job, the knives off and on duty) – they could just run around stabbing everyone because they had a really bad day or their boss went off on them or their patient just died but that doesn’t happen. Likewise, in our anatomy lab, we have a whole bunch of young people running around with scalpels. OMG! Students with weapons! What will we do? Ever dissected a frog or fetal pig in AP bio in high school? Same thing!

  • Teacher


    I apologize if you are a teacher, and I appear to be talking down to you. But the old saying goes “if you could walk a mile in my shoes.” If you are not a college teacher, you need to hear this experience I had.

    35 years ago when I was teaching in a Texas state university, a student in the classroom aimed a rifle at my head. He was mid-twenties (old enough to have a CCW permit today), and was a returned Vietnam combat veteran (so he could have easily passed any class in firearms training and safety). Unknown to everyone he had been traumatized by his experience, and his actions were probably due to a combination of anger/frustration and flashback. To my knowledge he had no criminal record. Today, he could have legally carried a concealed weapon by CCW permit.

    The point is this. College students are under such stress that grade/failure rage can completely overcome any rational behavior. Assaults on teachers occur all of the time; it’s just the less common ones that involve guns or lead to death that make the newpapers. I and my colleagues think that once a student snaps when seeing his academic ambitions going down the drain, it doesn’t matter if he had firearms safety, gun training instruction and has a clean criminal record. Having a concealed gun at hand doesn’t give him time to calm down and act rationally. Sorry, but school violence has to be addressed at every level by every means, and no guns rules on campus are just the beginning.

  • Teacher

    P.S. His friend talked him out of pulling the trigger. Thank you, Dennis Hambrick, wherever you are today.

  • http://www.okstate.edu Bubba Buckshot

    Agreeing with Kris & AntiCit, if a mental case is intent on harming someone, anyone, they will find a way (guns, knives, bats, books, fists). BUT, they may think twice, if they believe everyone around could possibly be armed!
    Hank…you mention two students murdered with a handgun this year in a jilted lover situation. Don’t you think if they or a nearby person had a weapon, that just maybe, they could have survived in self-defense? That jilted lover didn’t follow any of the rules, did he?

    Just remember, John Howard and all you other teachers trying to be do-gooders, bad guys will NOT follow your rules, regulations and little signs. Just think about all of the Postal shootings, Columbine, Luby’s Cafeteria, VA. Tech. I’ll bet big money, if you were at any of these places, you would have been THANKFUL if there had been a good armed citizen standing next to you.

    Also, as far as your polls go (John H), you are probably right about most of the instructors/professors in the world think like you.
    But…at my university, most of the instructors/professors can think rationally.
    That was hard for this old conservative to believe when I started working here, but over the last few years they have proven me wrong. Of about 350 faculty members, 250 have gone through my Conceal Carry Classes.

  • Kris

    Teacher —

    I am truly sorry you had that experience, but it still doesn’t prove anything.

    I almost had a guy kill me on the highway…I accidentally cut him off and at the next stop, he got out and started banging on my window with a knife, screaming at me and flashed his “gat” tucked in his waistband. Does this have anything to do with CCW? NO!!! Just becasue there are some mentally unhinged people out there doesn’t mean that the GOOD PEOPLE shouldn’t be allowed to legally carried guns.

    Statistics show that the people who take the time to get their CCW are self-selecting…they are almost 100% responsible good guys. The statistics prove that.

    And I don’t buy the arguement that college students are more stressed that the general population…anyone who believes that has never worked in the outside world or doesn’t have a grip on what average people go through.

    John Howard — I’d love to debate you but so far, your arguement is “nuh-uh, you’re wrong and I’m right because I say so”. I’ve presented statistics and documented proof…CCW holders are vastly more safe than the average citizen or even cop. Come back when you have real facts to back up your claims. For instance, did you know there are already colleges that allow Concealed Carry? And do you know how many shoot-outs they’ve had over slighted lovers and grades? Ummm….ZERO.

  • Teacher

    Bubbabuckshot: I think you are a liar. What is this the name of this college where 250 of 350 faculty had anything to do with you.

  • AntiCitizenOne

    Teacher – your story – while horrific – does not apply at all whatsoever. Your veteran sacrificed much for this great nation, including his mind – a case of PTSD would have already offlined him were he to try and get a permit – the application DOES screen for mental disabilities, you know. Now if everyone needed to get a licence to own and carry a gun much in the same way as ccw holders, maybe we won’t have much more actual nutcases with guns.

    You also have to realize that college isn’t everything in this world. Not many people went to college in the past, some decided to go out into the workforce on their own, and they did perfectly fine. Did they have a great life? Probably, to them. Not a big house, or nice cars, lavish belongings, but they were happy with what they got. Someone once told me that in the old days you could sign up to be an apprentice at a steel mill very easily – now you have to go through college and all the crazy stuff to do so, and pay tons of money as well.

    It’s not the guns. It’s greed. Greed for the American Dream – to have it all, why else do we push ourselves so hard through school, having to take out loans for ridiculously overpriced education, working because we were promised great things in the future, that it would be all taken care of if we worked really hard to someone else’s standards. Instead of addressing the root cause of stress, you go for an inanimate object.

    My chemistry teacher in high school taught us to make Down cells and was a self-avowed “left-wing revolutionary hippie who cheered the Seattle Seven” before he decided to stop sowing his wild oats. What could have stopped him from giving us the wrong formula to make Down cells and blowing us all up, or HIM making a bomb, or him using some of the chemicals he had in the backroom to poison the cafeteria food, or him lighting the room on fire with a bunsen burner?

    Only good individuals with proper training, that is accessible to anyone, military, LEO, and civilian, can stop someone like him.

    If you admit that assaults on teachers are frequent, and I’m going to presume the common ones do not involve guns or knives, as you have said, then why don’t we address that problem first? A modest proposal: tell your students to tie their hands and feet together before they enter your office, teacher, or better yet, cut off their limbs, and remove all blunt objects, books, and pencils from your office. Now you have fully prevented any assault on you, Teacher.

  • http://www.okstate.edu Bubba Buckshot

    Hey Teacher,
    Sorry if being Politically INcorrect offends you!

    I was born & raised by the Democratic Left in Wisconsin, but being conservative, I was relieved immensely when I moved here to Oklahoma, 28 years ago. I’ll give you that much info, but can’t name the university, in fear of you stalking me. :)
    By the way, I did work for the major airline here first 17 years and I firmly believe pilots & flight crew should be armed, also. If they had been, the camel jockies on 9-11, armed with box cutters, might not have completed their tasks, but hey, that’s a whole other similar debate.

    You are right, though, I may have miscalculated (lied). Not 250 of 350 teachers currently working here have gone through the class… but over last four years, 15-25 per class, three/four times per year, with the 10-20% turnover rate in employees, … I don’t really know the exact numbers, but you can kind of do the math.

  • http://lsua.edu Larry

    Just imaginge yourself, hearing gunfire, looking across your quad through your office or classroom window on a bright sunny day to see a deranged individual approaching you carrying an AK-47 clearly on a mission to kill anyone in range- bodies strewn in the background. Your pacifist ideas might be alterted in those moments– however brief…..likely you will not have the opportunity to reconsider or share your newfound ideals.


    I think carrying guns should be totally allowed anywhere you are at in the USA; but with a couple stipulations. Anyone who is carrying a gun has to wear a ten gallon hat, cowboy boots and spurs and all the guns shall be six shooters and carried in holsters like the old west. This way everyone is on even ground. There will be no doubt that he is carrying. And of course there should be swift justice for violators; like hanging in the local plaza outside of the courthouse and jail.

  • Alex

    Now does this rule not truely apply since Michigans state level government has a preemption clause and it states that college campuses are a pfz. Pfz means you are not allowed to conceal carry but you are allowed to open carry if you have your cpl permit,


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